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Post by dscott77 on Mar 5, 2019 20:25:54 GMT
Subtle playback pitch fluctuations when playing many of my 45 rpm discs are driving me nuts. I’ve owned a Rock-Ola Model 1000-3 Nostalgia for about 30 years. After sitting unused for about five of those latter years, the motor spindle had seized up and would not rotate the platter. Over the past several months, an exceedingly patient and knowledgable, retired jukebox repair guy with 40 years of experience has helped me resurrect it via telephone and USPS. Here’s what “we’ve” done to get it up and running AND track down the cause of the pitch variation I’m hearing:
— freed the motor spindle with a tiny bit of WD-40 carefully injected at the top — he checked and repaired, when necessary, several boards I sent to him — he installed a new nicad battery to replace mine which was dead — installed fresh, new turntable grommets — installed another idler wheel (used) since mine had developed an indentation which created an audible thump and cleaned both with capstan fluid in an effort to thwart any slippage — installed a new tonearm spring — at his direction, lubricated the recess in the turntable assembly onto which the the platter sits and rotates — loosed and then removed the turntable shipping springs — bought and tried several new MR44 needles — confirmed electrical outlet voltage is correct — at my request, he sent me another motor (used) as an alternative to mine which I’ve tried but pitch variations remain — confirmed idler wheel correctly abuts 45 rpm portion of the motor spindle and does not drift upward or downward — tried another platter (both platters carefully cleaned with capstan liquid the interiors of both where the idler wheel engages) — tried several new MR44 replacement needles
The jukebox now fully functions and is in great shape but I still hear those subtle pitch fluctuations in numerous records (all of which I’ve carefully cleaned). This phenomenon is most evident to me on slower songs or those that include sustained notes or lingering vocal passages. Faster, high energy music sound OK.
I should note that trying another motor required me to to loosen bolts and otherwise tinker with the turntable assembly. While I see little evidence of records “walking” from side to side when being played, sliding around the “turntable mounting plate rivet assembly” definitely increases/decreases the degree of distortion that I’m describing. This makes me wonder if I created the problem by getting something out of line.
In fairness, I seem to be more sensitive to these slightly sour variations than most everyone else. Perhaps I’m spoiled by digital preciseness in pitch so am I expecting too much from this aging technology? I can accept that the occasional 45 might be poorly manufactured and its hole a bit off-center but darn near all of my discs with slower music have this slight “warble,” particularly noticeable at their beginnings and toward their ends but evident throughout. My repairman contact has been very generous with his time and counsel and this note in no way is intended to minimize his expertise but I don’t recall hearing these fluctuations during the first twenty years I’ve owned the box. I did send iPhone recordings of a couple of discs that to my ear sounded “off” but my contact said he could not hear the anything unusual.
So, am I being unrealistic in my expectations? Should I simply be thankful that most others don’t hear this "sourness" and quit obsessing? Any additional adjustment guidance would be appreciated.
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Post by Ron Rich on Mar 5, 2019 21:22:45 GMT
Hi and welcome Please read & comply with our posting rules. Please read our FAQ's section, especially the "Hi newbies" post. Oil the turntable itself, the two felt reservoirs on the motor, the idler wheel linkage, and post idler wheel rides on --all with 20 wt. ND motor oil ("3inOne" brand, MOTOR, oil is fine-- NOT "WD 40"). If still bad, order a new idler wheel ( or re-surface yours, see our FAQ's again) AND a new correct, spring. You should not hear what you hear ! Ron Rich
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Post by robnyc on Mar 6, 2019 2:19:29 GMT
".., sliding around the “turntable mounting plate rivet assembly” definitely increases/decreases the degree of distortion that I’m describing." "Perhaps I’m spoiled by digital preciseness in pitch so am I expecting too much from this aging technology?" I'd like a better description and pic of that item. Reality is that you have done way more than I would have suggested (styli would not cause this problem) though better oiling of both top and bottom motor bearings might help, I suspect you are 'blessed" with keen, if not perfect pitch. People like this are not really suited to these somewhat primitive phonos. The unbalanced tonearm can exacerbate wow especially on warped records as the stylus pressure is already heavy and becomes more so on "hills" in the disc. . There are things that can be done to improve tracking and reduce pressure (see notes on this site) but what actually plays the record in a Rock Ola is about two steps up from a kiddie phono. If possible, post a simple audio recording. Use an external host to avoid copyright nonsense. This one is easy: www.fileconvoy.com/index.phpRobNYC
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Post by dscott77 on Mar 6, 2019 16:04:55 GMT
My profound thanks for the replies. This morning I will devour the FAQ section, including the "Hi newbies" post. Later today I will try to provide one of the the audio recordings I originally sent to my repair contact BUT I must tell you that after writing my post, I decided to go back and tweak the position of the turntable assembly. I loosened the two top bolts and two bottom ones on "stilts." Doing so gives me significant adjustment range and, as previously noted, seems to have the most affect on whether I hear the anomaly I've described. I then played several records that have been particularly contrary in my perception of fluctuating pitch. As the records played and anytime I began to hear variation on prolonged notes, I very gently and slightly nudged the turntable assembly until the the sourness was minimal. Eventually I carefully tightened all four bolts, trying hard to keep the assembly in the spot where things sounded, to my ear, pretty darned good. The result is that most of which I've been whining is gone -- or, at least, minimal. I then played a number of other discs, both high energy and ones with slower music. Virtually all sounded better than when I first began the resurrection of the jukebox. It think the lubrication advice offered in your responses is essential in my case. (By the way, I never lubricated with WD-40 anything but the old motor innards. Even then, it was the smallest of squirts into an opening at top at the base of the spindle.) While I'm not a musician (apart from playing electric bass in a very amateur bluegrass band many, many years ago), I do think my sense of pitch is more sensitive than most.
I do have one more question, though. How close should the cartridge be to the record? Mine is only a hair's width away and that doesn't seem right. During this process, I ruined one needle but trying to bend it ever so slightly downward to provide at least a little bit of space between the bottom of the cartridge and the disc surface. A newbie mistake, to be certain, but I saw no other way to elevate the cartridge. My tonearm spring is toward the lightest end of the arm, as the Model 1000-3 manual instructs.
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Post by Ron Rich on Mar 6, 2019 16:24:05 GMT
Your needle should be held by the cartridge at, a 45 degree angle to the record grove--with ZERO bend in the supporting shank, being caused by the spring. You should read and comply with the service manual settings for spring tension, using a gram gauge. You may also want to read--follow, Rob's advice on tone arm balance for this, as shown above this post. Ron Rich
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Post by dscott77 on Mar 6, 2019 20:01:06 GMT
to robnyc: I'm poised to upload my original iPhone recording to fileconvoy.com but do not see a way to provide a link to it here. Alternatively, I've already uploaded it to Dropbox. Is this forum OK with my providing a Dropbox link (which I'll take down in a few days). Either way, this video was made several weeks ago at the request of my repair guy. He also wanted to see close-ups of the turntable and tonearm action so I move the camera around a bit. It's not the best audio recording but if you listen all the way through, you should be able to hear what my ear picks up, i.e. the pitch fluctuating at various points, particularly at the beginning and end. As stated in my previous note, most of this is much improved after my manipulation of the turntable assembly (via loosening, sliding and then tightening the four bolts I mentioned. My next step will be lubricating as suggested by Ron Rich. If my Dropbox link is not a good idea, tell me how I can provide a link with fileconvoy.com. So far, I see only how to send it to specific email addresses. Sorry if I'm missing something obvious.
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Post by dscott77 on Mar 6, 2019 21:23:22 GMT
To Ron Rich: Ron, here's a link -- www.dropbox.com/s/kfz68jrbx1pnajv/Rock-Ola%20Model%201000-3%20Motor.jpg?dl=0 -- to a jpeg of one of my two Rock-Ola 1000-3 motors. Without disassembling it, I don't see an obvious "two felt reservoirs on the motor" for oiling as per your suggestion above. Before I start taking this guy apart and risking trouble, I wanted to check if there are oiling spots somewhere inside. Thanks for your patience with this newbie.
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Post by Ron Rich on Mar 6, 2019 23:26:57 GMT
See the motor shaft--see all the holes encircling it -- that's where the (black) felt is --saturate it there, on both sides--suprized that there is no "oil tube" on that motor--most late ones have two tubes--- ?? Please READ, and COMPLY with our posting "rules", as stated in the "user introduction" section. Thanks, Ron Rich Board Monitor.
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Post by robnyc on Mar 7, 2019 7:09:24 GMT
to robnyc: I'm poised to upload my original iPhone recording to fileconvoy.com but do not see a way to provide a link to it here. Alternatively, I've already uploaded it to Dropbox. Is this forum OK with my providing a Dropbox link As far as I know you can post any link. For fileconvoy you just follow the instructions to browse and find your file, U/L it and you get back a link like that below:http://www.fileconvoy.com/dfl.php?id=g8c92d0217ef65c4210001541051dacda833f3f6a4f -these are samples of hum in amps. I think that you may have a case of really excessive tracking pressure if you stylus cantilever is collapsing. It may also be a case where you are using a copy stylus. Those can be too compliant for those arms. Let's see your video, It may give some ideas to us. RobNYC
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Post by dscott77 on Mar 7, 2019 13:34:56 GMT
ronnyc -- Got it! I just uploaded the .mov file and here's the link -- www.fileconvoy.com/dfl.php?id=gfd2e9f092d411fdc1000154216b60a615940279bd7. I've been playing a lot of discs since I re-adjusted the "Turntable Mounting Plate Rivet Assembly" as described in my previous post. So far, all discs sound much better so please keep in mind that the video was many shot weeks ago as I was still struggling. However, I had an anxious hour when the disc magazine stopped responding to "scan" and "operate" but slowly stepping (initializing???) through discs. When this action stopped, I was able successfully select specific records and it never failed to find and play the correct one. But the initializing would continue after a given disc finished and was returned to the magazine. Consulting the "Control Unit Operating Manual," I tried clearing all credits and selections via the appropriate Control Unit buttons and that seemed to do the trick. Now the scan and operation switch seems to be working as before. Ron Rich -- I had overlooked the need to completely fill out a profile and hope that I'm now in compliance. Also, I'll head to Lowe's for 3-in-1 "motor" oil. Peering with a flashlight into the holes on the motor I see no black felt -- just shiny metal but assume the felt is in there somewhere. Should I just squirt into the holes or disassemble and find the actual felt? As for the tonearm and stylus, I bought on Amazon a "Liibo LCD Digital Turntable Force Scale o.o1g to 5 g Phono Cartridge Needle Scale" but have been unable to make it perform as illustrated in the service manual. I will look for one that closely resembles the one illustrated there. In any case, you may be able to see from the video how very close the cartridge is to a disc when playing. Again, thanks to both of you for the help and patience. Apart from lubrication, I am now inclined to stop tinkering. Could be that all of the use I'm giving the jukebox has somewhat limbered it up tamped down the "sourness" about which I've been complaining. Whatever has happened, even slow music sounds much better and my expectations have been realistically calibrated. One thing I've learned: It was unwise of me to let it sit for a long period of time without playing. Duh.
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Post by Ron Rich on Mar 7, 2019 13:58:25 GMT
David, Yes--thanks, the profile now shows your location ! As for the "felt"--it's usually packed around the bearing shaft, and needs to soak thru to the bearing and shaft-- ?? Ron Rich
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Post by dscott77 on Mar 7, 2019 14:19:16 GMT
OK. Maybe I'd better remove the four screws holding the motor casing together and take a look. Also, I will again attempt to measure my stylus/tonearm tracking force with the digital scale I found on Amazon. No luck in locating a non-digital one illustrated in the arguably very old service manual. Certainly I ought to be able to do this with what I've got!
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Post by Ron Rich on Mar 7, 2019 14:26:20 GMT
Hi David,
I just got a view of the vid--with my (real) blurry (today),eyes, it appears that you are correct-- I can't determine how much deflection you have when the needle sits down but it appears to me that either you have a poorly constructed needle, or the pressure is way too heavy. As for how the cartridge mount was "bent"---that probably is making a difference too-- If this were mine, I would start, by "un-bending" the cart.,then with either a new, or rebuilt idler wheel, a NEW--correct, idler wheel spring, and a new "Gen-u-whine" needle (see our FAQs for suppliers). Ron Rich
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Post by Ron Rich on Mar 7, 2019 14:31:02 GMT
David, I use a Nueses brand, stylus pressure gauge. "Google it", you can usually find them used-and once properly set, you should never need to re-adjust it, so you can re-sell it ! Ron Rich
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Post by dscott77 on Mar 7, 2019 21:36:06 GMT
Ron: I've inquired about purchasing a new idler wheel, idler wheel spring and a new Shure M44MR cartridge from www.needles4jukeboxes.com. The cartridge is listed as currently out of stock. I removed the casing of the motor in search of felt but found nothing that fits that description. Here are photos - www.dropbox.com/sh/3vn5srsgzdrss6t/AACuDfoh_A_CW3T65c3ayfdha?dl=0There are four stiff rectangular pieces surrounding the spindle. They are the closest to something resembling felt but don't seem the least bit absorbent. Before I start indiscriminately squirting 3-in-1 "motor" oil (obtained today at Ace Hardware) anywhere in this thing, I wanted to run these images by you. I also found a "Rock-Ola 404 & 408 lubrication chart" you provided another member. Although it's not my model, I will search it for clues as to parts I ought to be able to safely lubricate with the 3-in-1 or the graphite grease (Deoxit L260Gp Grease w/Graphite Particles) I'm ordering on Amazon. It's the closest I could find to "wet" graphite grease that doesn't require a grease gun! I will proceed cautiously since there is not such chart in my package of original Model 1000-3 manuals. Tomorrow I'll re-address the tonearm, try to figure out what you mean by "unbending" the cartridge and attempt to set the pressure at between three and five grams, as my service manual instructs. I soldier onward.
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