Wurlitzer 800 sound

[juke46]

Ron,

Yes!  The AMI salesman did not make much sense with the manual.  We still wonder what the problem was.  He soon left the AMI dealership.  There used to be stories of coin op and vending machine operators having confrontations over routes and territories.  We thought, perhaps, he really did not like selling any machine for home use.  I also wondered if he wanted a service call for himself or someone when it needed service. 

He soon left the AMI dealership and opened a store selling used machines and associated materials.  Unfortunately his business failed in a year or two.  Overall he was just kind of a crabby guy, I guess.  We did purchase a few items at his store and he did become less offensive.  I now have an original manual that is in the original loose leaf binder. 

Anna and I were fortunate to find an old Operator who was a joy to be around.  We found him because of an ad in the newspaper.  After many years of being in the coin-op business he was very outspoken with wonderful and funny stories of his experiences with coin-op routes etc.  We met several of his coin op friends as well.  All talented people and if we could get them started they had great stories as well.  Coin op machine, routes and competition was very serious business.  I am sure it still is. 

We visited his home to check out five or six restored Wurlitzer jukeboxes.  His living room was glowing with all those beautiful restored machines, all from the 1940's.  A huge 850, 1100, 1015 are the ones I remember.  He came walking down the hall a Camel cigarette in his mouth and dragging a portable oxygen bottle along with him.  I won't say what we thought about that mix of fire and oxygen.  He probably figured out quickly we were just looky-loos.  We could not afford any of his machines.  That did not matter, he enjoyed our company and he told us of someone he knew who was selling an unrestored 600 or something like that.  We became good friends and we used to take a couple of his wonderful machines to antique shows for him every so often.  We made regular visits to his home as his health deteriorated.  One day, he was gone.  He had story after story of the coin op business.  We laughed and laughed at his gifted story telling of being a coin op guy.  I wish I had taped every one of those stories.  

[Ron Rich]

Hi David,
Selling a used jukebox for home use, was never "taboo"-- selling a jukebox, of any kind--new/used to a "location owner" was counter productive for a jukebox distributor. Competition here (San Francisco) was "cut-throat", at times, also on the distributor scale. Most dists., were real leery of selling to a location owner for fear that he would kick out an operator--who would then purchase from the competing dist.
What was your friend's name-- I MAY have known him-- Ron Rich

[juke46]

Ron,

His name was Jack Goodwin.  He owned Goodwin Amusements.  We had some large vending machine companies like "Valley Vendors" in Phoenix.  Competition for locations was fierce. One of the funny things, I remember was when his son became a Dentist.  Jack told us "don't go to him for a while".  "He's new at that and he charges way too damn much".  We went to him anyway and he was our dentist for 30-35 years and recently has retired. 

On one occasion one of the platers ruined some of Jack's castings.  Jack had a box of old and beat-up, worthless doorknobs and he seriously wanted to send them out for Chrome but not pick them up.  He never did, I think his wife intervened on that plan.  Jack had a couple of 24 select Wurlitzer hideaways.  I think they were 1100 mechanisms because it seems like they had the Cobra tone arms.  If we needed something he would just have us take it off.  We had to pay his wife because he would not accept payment.  This conversation has brought back a lot of really good memories of a kind but outspoken and very funny man!  

[Ron Rich]

Hi David,
Nope -- sorry, he sounds like a person I would have liked to talk with--but never got the chance---
Ron Rich

[Startgroove]

Just to go back on a few details. The volume control unit for an 800 is designed specifically for the amplifier (not all pre-war Wurlitzer volume control units are the same), it has a circuit which equalizes and sets up the proper impedance for the input of the 800 amplifier. For optimized sound, the proper Volume Control Unit should be installed. I see them on Ebay now and then.
In addition, see as how you have replaced the dynamic pick up with a ceramic one, there is an additional impedance mismatch into the volume control unit. Replacing the cartridge that way has advantages, but it destroys the equalization and loudness compensation. A typical obvious sound difference is a lack of low notes below 300 Hz. Strongly recommend getting, or building, a preamp that compensates for those deficiencies. Jacobs made one, Wurlitzer made one (Kit 87) and Wico made one. I think I have examples of all three. If I could load pictures here, I would, so you can see what they look like. Also, if you want to build one, I can supply you with a schematic.
Back to the popping. All of the advice given above is good and relevant. I would add that Wurlitzer 24 play volume control potentiometers are notorious for being noisy due to dirt and oxidization degrading the elements inside. Often, they can be rejuvinated by squirting them with circuit cleaner, and sometimes simply working them back and forth between full volume and low volume will clean them somewhat. Cleaning of all contacts on the plugs and connectors in the sound system is a good idea. Lastly, (not related to popping) it would be wise to add an extra ground wire between the mechanism and the amplifier chassis. If that kills the sound, then reverse the plug at the input to the volume control unit.
Hopefully, the advice above and here will help clear up your problem. Cheers, Russie

[wurl800]

Thanks to everyone, I have highlighted all the tips for improving the sound on the Wurl 800. Based on those, the most important are 1. the unshielded tone arm cable, and 2. the non-W800 volume box, and maybe 3. a pre-amp to compensate for the newer tonearm cartridge (I need to take a look at that cartridge- it's been a while).

I managed to get the mechanism unjammed with some silicone lubricant, but a major cleaning is still pretty needed (the record tray is pretty sluggish- the records won't quite reseat themselves when returned to the tray). I still don't know of any short cut for this. I will start a new thread about cleaning.
Please feel free to offer any more advise. I appreciate all recommendations.
thanks, Tyler

[Startgroove]

Strongly recommend not using a silicone lubricant. Some of them (WD-40 for one) use a volatile carrier that evaporates away leaving behind the dry silicone.  They work for a while. but don't last.  The better lubricant is a light oil, of which there are many choices. I use red transmission fluid, it is cheap, lasts forever and never breaks down.
The problem with trays not returning could be caused by one or more of a few different things. Dry or gummy lubricant is one. Also, Wurlitzer 24 play models were plagued by a tendency for one or more of the record trays to sag, or even be bent downward (and occasionally upward if the turntable hits one). The solution is usually to carefully bend them back so they just kiss the bottom tooth of the comb with a record installed in that tray on its disc. Once, I found a stack that was not properly assembled, causing too loose of a stack, so check for that too.  Hopefully this will help. Cheers, Russie

[wurl800]

Thanks Russie,
Do you know the order of assembly for the W800 record stack (e.g. big washer, tray, little washer, tray, etc.) from the very bottom? I might have gotton my washers mixed up when I last disassembled the stack in 1974. I would like to get it right.
thanks again, Tyler

[Ron Rich]

Hi Tyler,
Do the parts book not answer this ?? Ron Rich

[Startgroove]

Ron, The order is: large washer, small size spacer, tray, then large washer etc. A drop of oil on top of and under each tray as you assemble.  Important, at the top of the last tray, there should be the popularity meter flange OR a flat washer approximately the thickness of the flange (without it the stack will be too loose).  Cheers, Russie

[wurl800]

Thanks Russie,
Steve at VG kindly responded to my email and said I needed a volume box mod kit for the Aststic cartridge, ad well as shielded cable.
Russie, I appreciate the record stack order of assembly. I might have gotten it wrong, and it likely needs a lube job anyway.
Tyler
ps. How do you post a photo?

[Startgroove]

On one of my messages above, I mention the several pre-amps that were made back in the day for Wurlitzer.  I think I have a Jacobs pre-amp that needs a total rebuild, or I can send you a diagram for the Wurlitzer Kit 87 pre-amp if you wish to build one yourself.  I've built several of the Kit 87's and they work very well to bring back the bass and match impedance.  They get their power from the base of one of the 6L6 tubes, but they will also work on other tubes with the same base connections, including 6U6, 6V6, 6W6, 5881, 5932, 7408, 7581-A, and others.  Cheers, Russie  

PS, see this link for more info.   antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=341496&hilit=+Kit+87

[wurl800]

Thanks again Russie, but I do not have the talent or resources to put together a preamp kit. Does the VG volume control (VC) mod kit do the same thing?

Two more questions:

Is there any special consideration when installing the A-51 cartridge in the original tone arm (insulation or grounding)?
There is a W1015 VC box in my W800. Will I still need to get a W800 VC box to use with the VG VC mod kit?

David: please see my separate post about W800 foil paper color and pattern.
Also, how do you insert a photo on a post.
thanks again,
Tyler

Tyler

[Startgroove]

I believe the VG kit guts the original volume control unit and has new and different parts to be installed.  This will help to improve the impedance matching, but not the equalization.  In addition, it does not have loudness compensation, which is essential for good low volume bass response.  If you want the best sound at all volumes, you should try to find a pre-amp.  That is my opinion, but I do understand cost consideration.  I think the last Kit 87 I saw on Ebay was about $65 and it needed to be re-capped.
As to the green foil replacement, I'm not aware of an exact replacement.  The original green foil was heavily embossed, so if it is in good condition other than faded, you can spray it with green translucent stained glass paint ( some experimenting required). Alternately, there are some choices in Holiday foil paper that can be substituted in place of the original foil paper.  Or, you can glue that thin paper over the original paper, and by using a brush, or sponge to push the thin paper into the little crevices, you can make the thin paper conform fairly well to the original pattern.  Again, some experimentation should be done on other surfaces to be sure you like the results.  Cheers, Russie

[wurl800]

Russie,
Thanks for the update. I can see this is not going to be simple or easy.
There are 3 Kit 87's on Ebay right now. Two of them are in very sad condition, but one kit appears to be reasonably decent, but it will need a major going-through. I saw your schematic for a Kit 87 for a crystal cartride on your link, but is it different for a (A-51) ceramic cartridge? I guess I would need to locate someone who could test all the components of that used kit and then replace them. Do you know of anyone with the ability to do that?
Thanks again for any advice.
Tyler