wallbox 5225/stepper 270 selection problem,Wurlitzer 1050

[jawadde12]

Hi guys,

I have a very strange problem with my wallbox/stepper.

Thrue time more selections were wrong and so the  selected records were played wrong.

So i cleaned all the contacts in the wallbox and stepper with isopranol en cleaned all the contacts of the relays.

i used a  special file to clean the relais contacts..

I measured and tested all the coils from the relais and they were all a like.(10% more less then 620 ohm).

i measured all the relais contacts as well.

I changed all the capacitors in the stepper for new ones.

I checked and tested the mecanical selection wheels in the stepper.(one was functioning badly).and the selection wheel in the wallbox as well.

i have wire diagrams of the wallbox and stepper.

So now everything is clean and mecanical allright but  the selections are still not matching the plays.

The most strange thing is that it doesn,t matter wich selections i make,there are 4 the same records that are selected most frequently.

So whathever is select,it makes a selection of 4 records that keeps coming back when the selection doesn,t match the record.

I try to measure the pulse from the wallbox but that is even a strange thing.

I measure 24v ac on contact 1 (pulse) to ground.So there is 24v on the pulse signal in rest position.

When i make a selection i see a voltage drop(analog meter) at rythm of the sound from the stepper.

I find i very strange that their is a voltage drop instead of sending a puls signal from 0 v.

But i don,t now of this is good or bad.

Has anyone any idea what this problem could be?

Thanks for any reply.

Eric

[jukenorman]

Hi Eric,
Attached is a picture of how to make an LED tester to check your wallbox pulses. First, check your wallbox is pulsing OK and then check that the number and letter steppers are advancing as they should.
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[jawadde12]

Hi jukenorman,

Thanx for your reply

I made the testled and i have pulse signal after pushing the buttons.

What is very strange is that no matter wich selection a make( on the wallbox) ,the juke makes a choice over just 4 or 5 records.

So everytime it plays the same records whatever selection a make.

The keyboard on the juke selects  just fine.

I don,t know the pulse sequence of the stepper.

Its a kind of morse pulse code.

When i select A1 the stepper should select first contact on the letter wheel and first contact on the number wheel i suppose.

But it doesn,t  even looks a bit logical.

should it when a select B5 the letterwheel to contact 2 and the number wheel to contact 5?

Is it that simpel?

So im still not sure of its a walbox or a stepper problem...

[jukenorman]

Hi Eric,
If you connect the tester and make selection K0, you should see 10 flashes (letter K), a short gap and then 10 flashes (number 0). That should show that the wallbox is functioning. Then select K0 again but this time, watch the stepper - you should see it step up 10 times on the letter side and then 10 times on the number side. I have to say that I'm not familiar with that stepper, but I think I'm correct in saying that the letter stepper is on the left and the number stepper on the right.

Norman.

[jawadde12]

Hi Norman,

i checked the sequence of the wallbox with the led tester.

It doesn,t make any sense.

K0 is not 10 pulses on the letter wheel and 10 pulses on the number wheel.

i think their is more code to it then just letter and number pulses with a pause inbetween.

I think i found the problem in the keyboard of the wallbox.

There are so many contacts (9 wires only on knob A!!) that i think there are several contacts to oxidated that they not making the proper contacts.

i found 1 contact in the A knob that wasn,t making any contact when pressed.

It is an unbelievable complex switch board 

So i,m going to take the keyboard apart and try to clean it with isopropanol or otherwise with vinigar and salt.

With what i learned so far it seems a wrong pulse code that starts with bad contacts in the keyboard.

Do you have some experience with oxidized keyboards?

With kind regards Eric.

[Ron Rich]

Hi Eric,
I don't know where you are located, since you did not honor the "request" in the user introductions section--but should you be able to find a product called "Deoxit-5", I find it wonderful for cleaning oxidized contacts--FOLLOW-- the directions on the can !! Ron Rich

[Ron Rich]

Norman,
I am not familiar with that stepper set-up either-- but did they actually use a 10/10 pulse on it, unlike other brands that "matrix-ed" it ? Ron Rich

[jawadde12]

Thanx for the tip Ron.

i,m located in the Netherlands.

You helped me out som time ago with a selection problem on the selector wheel. (little spring was lose.. so the selected pin din,t stay up)

[jukenorman]

Hi Ron,
I was guessing that it worked like the old style steppers. I had a look at a picture on the jukebox-world archive of the 270 stepper that would have been fitted and it looks like there's a 20 step unit on LHS and a 10 step unit on RHS (for 200 selections). But I don't have any documentation to confirm that, I'm afraid.

Norman.

[jawadde12]

Hi Norman and Ron,

Thanx so far for the replies.

I found something very strange.

As you know there is a selection wheel in the walbox.When i push the selection wheel threu it  start position it send pulses to the stepper without any key selection made!!

As i sayd there are 4 or 5 songs that plays over and over.

So without making any selection on the keyboard (wallbox) the same records are selected.

It seems that the keyboard is not in rest position.

In my logic thinking there schould be no selection made if there are no buttons are pressed.

But i checked everything that i can think of.

Any ideas or suggestions??

Thanx Eric

[Ron Rich]

Hi Eric,
Like I said-- I don't "know" WurliTzer wallbox/stepper operations--- so, it is my GUESS that the keyboard on the wallbox opens the circuit to all of the later keys when one is pressed ? On a Seeburg system, if you start the motor wheel, with no keys pressed, you will get the highest numbered selection on the phono-- Ron Rich

[jukenorman]

Hi Eric,

Do you have a manual for your wallbox? Without technical information, you will appreciate that it's actually difficult to make practical suggestions. The selection wheel in the wallbox - how many rivets are on it? And are they in two sections with a gap somewhere?

There is a thread on the 5225 wallbox from 2018 where RobNYC has offered advice.  It does appear that it operates as older electro-mechanical wallboxes do but A carries an additional pulse - so selecting K0 should have a pulse train of 11, gap and then 10.  I suggest you look for that thread from Feb. 2018.

Norman.

[jawadde12]

Hi Norman,

Thank you for the thread.

Unfortunaly i didn,t had the golden tip for me.

But i learned al lot, so i,m going to focus on the pulse sequences and the timing of the stepper.

Greetings Eric

[jukeboxgeek]

Allow me to add a bit to this discussion…..I have recently spent a fair amount of time sorting out how the 5225 Wallbox communicates with a Wurlitzer 1050 JB.
A couple of basic design criteria ….. As has been stated and most of you know …..all Wallboxes communicate with their host JB in pretty much the same way. A Wallbox sends out two pulse trains (sequences) for every record selection made at the Wallbox(s) Bear in mind that there might up to 6 or more Wallboxes connected (daisy chained) together to the same host JB.

The first sequence of pulses from the Wallbox to the JB represents the “Letter” associate with the record selection in the Wallbox and the second sequence of pulses represent the “number” associated with the record selection ……as shown on the flip panels in the 5225 wallbox.
The Letter pulses are sent out first ….followed by a short pause (maybe 1/4 to 3/4 sec…..:then the Number pulses are sent out.
That’s the basic design specification of most all Wallboxes that I am familiar with….and between all JB manufacturers. Letters first then numbers.

Here is where things get a bit complicated……but hopefully will make sense after walking thru a couple of examples and understanding certain things……for example……,the first pulse in the Letter sequence of pulses has one purpose and one purpose only…….whenever the Stepper unit …….sometimes called the Receiver unit in the host computer “sees” the first pulse….it (stepper unit) kills the power out to all other Wallboxes……this doesn’t affect the Wallbox that is making the selection …..ie the Wallbox that sent the first pulse……but it does prevent any other Wallbox from starting any new selection.That’s how manufactures prevented any one Wallbox from “stepping” on the others selection sequence.

And now , understanding the rest of the pulse sequence for Letters is straight forward…..there are 20 Letter Buttons (1 thru 20 PN switches) around the panels on the 5225 Wallbox ….which you can see. Keys 1 thru 10 (top to bottom) on the left side and 11 thru 20 (top to bottom ) on the RH side.
What you don’t see are the 10 contact switchs behind the record selection panels you are looking at …..when you turn or flip a panel you are changing the number of contacts that get closed . If you are looking at Panels 1 and 2 (Called page 1) you are looking at record selections A1 thru A0 (LH panel) and B1 thru B0 (RH) panels …still Page 1. (5225!Wallbox)
Let’s make a record selection from the list of record titles listed on Page 1 and I’ll tell you what the Letter and Number pulse sequence will be .I choose B7…..
The pulse sequence will be 18 pulses -pause- then 1 pulse. The Letter B is the 17 th push button around the Wallbox counting Top to bottom as I described above…..and add 1 extra pulse for the Stepper to disable all the other Wallboxes as described above. The one (1) pulse in the number pulse sequence after the pause represents the “First page you are looking at. As you flip the panels ….you will be looking at Page 2 ….as you flip the panels again you should notice that there are 10 pages (max) in the 5225 Wallbox ….10 pages x 20 Pushbuttons = 200 possible song selections (100 records).
FYI …Record selection K7 would be 18 pulses-pause- 10 pulses.
A1 would be 2 pulses-pause-1 pulse. Sorry if this has made things more complicated……I have built a table that might be easier to understand.Always glad to help as best I can. Good luck!

[Ron Rich]

You maybe correct on the WurliTzer 5225, but you are incorrect on Seeburgs. Seeburg never bothered to "kill power" to other wall-boxes ( an unlimited number, if additional power transformers were connected !). Ron Rich