Wurlitzer 2400s speed issue

[Ron Rich]

Hi Richard,
Yep-- that worked !-- Looks to me as if the motor is starting to "sag" (MAY be just camera angle ?)*-- time to install new motor mounts ? Also, did you get oil on the "rear" of the motor armature shaft-- I think there is an oil wick there on that type motor ? The "ball", if used is on the backside of photo's-- can't tell if there on this one from photo's ? Also oil the small shaft on the back of the turn table--and the rollers that "push it"-- looks dry in the photo's --- Ron Rich

[jukenorman]

Hi Richard,
While I agree with all the points Ron has made above, I'm also a bit worried about the pulley on the motor. I have a "rogues' gallery" of 50Hz Wurlitzer pulleys that I have had to replace over the years and it contains one that looks very like yours! Does it have the number 6114 (quite small and not easy to see) cast on the other side of the pulley that we cannot see in your pictures?

Norman.

[Ron Rich]

Hi Guyz---
I have never needed to deal with 50/60 Hertz speed problems here in the US-- Wondering, Richard, --is this phono "new to you" - or have you had it "for years"--and if so, has it always had speed problems ? Norman, I was un-aware that the pulley size changed-- I have seen some phono's where a "spring" was added to the pulley's drive (usually on the motor's shaft). Ron Rich

[jukenorman]

Hi Ron,
Springs on the motor shaft for Rock-Olas and idler wheel AMis, pulleys for WurliTzers and gears for Seeburgs to change 60Hz to 50Hz, 45rpm turntable drive. Or alternatively an electronic frequency converter!

Norman.

[stillinlovewiththis]

Wow. There’s some knowledge on here. I hope I don’t dilute it too much.
Okay, I’ll do my best to answer as fully as possible and in order. I’m immensely grateful for this by the way. Love music. Adore the jukebox. Enjoy messing with stuff but importantly, I know what I know and more importantly, I know what I don’t know.
First up Ron,
Sagging motor? Any idea of the part numbers or their correct name? I’m going through the manual as I type.
Yes, I got oil on the rear of the shaft. The felt gauze really drank a good few drops immediately and I keep giving it a drop every few hours. Ditto the rest of the lubrication points you’ve already told me about. In effect I’ve probably over oiled it now, if this is possible?
The rollers that look dry are in fact immaculate. I know this because after your advice about grease mixing earlier in the thread, I removed this part and had it in the garage to detail it. White spirit bath, WD40 clean before re-greasing and re assembly. It a dream but I’d like to have the skill set to get the whole machine in the garage, strip, detail and reassemble it.
To sum up, all well lubricated where it should be lubricated. I had to reset the record clamp setting once it was immaculate as the record clamp wasn’t recessing enough at the end of play, and the records weren’t “falling” back where they should have. All good now on that front. I’ve tried playing quite a few records today to get the oil into the shafts where it should go to. Some records sound better than others speed wise.
I think I’ve stretched the drive belt by fitting a new belt (probably a few years ago now if I’m honest) without releasing the tension. There’s about 12mm, 1/2 inch of “play” in the belt in the centre of the pulleys. I think the belt could be a little tighter. I also think (read hope) that the speed issue is related to the slightly stretched belt. The belt looks new and in good condition but I don’t have the old one to compare it to. There’s a new on on the way.

Norman, you are correct. (Well almost) yes, very difficult to photograph but with a strong light and good magnifying glass I can confirm it has 61114 on the small pulley.

It’s not a new machine to me. We bought it from a Jukebox shop in 2001. We’ve used it sporadically. I’m guessing not enough if I’m honest. I have a theory that the best way to kill any machine is not to use it. Consequently I do try to use it every week. I’ve systematically tried to regularly play every disc on there starting at A1 and going through the whole selection over a few days.

I do think it’s been playing slow for a while. I seem to remember being disappointed when I replaced the belt last time because I thought I was going to cure it. I’m more focussed on sorting it this time. I’ve got a strobe so when the belt arrives I’ll do a speed check again and see where we are.
In the meantime I’ll have a look for the motor support mounts.

Again thank you very much for sharing the knowledge and the encouragement.
Kindest regards, Richard

[stillinlovewiththis]

On close inspection, the motor does look to be sagging. I’ve seen you can buy a kit to refresh the rubber parts. I’ll get one sorted asap.

[Ron Rich]

Richard,
Be very "careful" in purchasing "kits" for that purpose ! I have had the un-fortunat experience of kits being built with incorrect rubber !
I have come to the conclusion here that only "Jukebox_world" in Germany, takes care to provide the correctly, "scone value", parts. I don't know what is available in the UK., but I sure would ask, any supplier, prior to purchase ! Ron Rich ?

[stillinlovewiththis]

All noted, many thanks.

[jukenorman]

Hi Richard,

Yes it is 61114 that is imprinted on the pulley - I wonder whether that is a Deutsche WurliTzer Lyric pulley? Anyway back in the 1990's, I got so frustrated with the quality of the 50Hz pulleys that were available in the UK that I got a friend to make me some. They were sized from a genuine North Tonawanda 60Hz double grooved pulley. I now only have one left (which I doubt I'll ever use) and it's slightly bigger than the 61114 so I would reckon that is almost certainly your problem.

Let me know what rpm you get when you strobe yours and I'll do a calculation between the 61114 and my one.

Norman.

[Ron Rich]

Hi Guyz,
Does the parts section display part numbers for that wheel, that differ between 50 & 60 Hertz ? Does it show that part number at all ? Ron Rich

[jukenorman]

I only have (some) Wurlitzer manuals up to the 2500 series. The pulley part number in these is only the 60Hz one.

Norman.

[stillinlovewiththis]

Todays update. A new belt arrived is I fitted it without delay. I didn’t slacken the adjusters and although it looked identical on the kitchen work surface to the one I removed, when I measured it in situ, there was less deflection. In effect it was tighter.
It also occurred to me to try to be more structured in my approach so, when I carried out the speed test, I used an un-dinked record so the middle was hopefully truly circular.
The record I chose was 3’43 seconds running time according to the label (I know, not always accurate,) and I marked the edge with some tip ex and did a manual count. The turntable rotated steadily at 42rpm and the song ended at 3’49, 6 seconds “late”.

I’ve got the motor rubber bushes on the way to hopefully eliminate this potential issue. Jukenorman, if you think your pulley might solve this, and you are willing to sell it to me, drop me a pm please.

To sum up, could it really have been playing slow all the 20 years we’ve had it? I guess it could have. When we put records on, I’m going to guess I don’t critically listen to them like I do on the other various hi fi’s we’ve got dotted around the place. In addition, like a lot of folks I think, my wife has half the selections and she’s slightly older than me. Her 60’s stuff sounds really good but I don’t know what they are supposed to sound like? Ditto, the juke box classics like Be Bop a Lula which sounds ace but could be slightly slow. Of course when I play something I’m familiar with, and concentrate on actually listening to it, rather than chatting around the dinner table or gossiping on the patio etc, it does sound slow. To sum up, it could possibly have been slightly slow for years.
Again, thanks for the comments, it’s greatly appreciated.

[Ron Rich]

Hi Richard,
Was that phono sold new in the UK by an authorized distributor, or was it used in the US as a 60 Hz. unit ? Whom ever "imported it" should have set the speed correctly, at the time it was imported -- Ron Rich

[stillinlovewiththis]

Sorry Ron. I don’t know the answer to this question. I bought it from a jukebox shop. The guy was enthusiastic but the standard of some of the work carried out leaves a lot to be desired. That’s not to say that he, (as the supplying dealer) did this work, but it certainly went through his workshop.
I’ll report back as soon as the rubber mounts arrive.
Thanks,

[jukenorman]

Hi Richard,
I'm fairly confident that my pulley will resolve your problem - however, I will do some measurements tomorrow based on your 61114 doing 43rpm and get back to you.

Ron,
Most of these late 50s' Wurlies came into the UK used from the US, either in the early 60s or as collectables in the 80s and 90s and would all have required 50Hz pulleys. I have definitely replaced pulleys on the older imports because they ran fast - probably a bit of operator sharp practice there though!

Norman.