Seeburg KD200 Scans Twice... With A Twist

[64b1t]

I've got a KD200 that has a Seeburg R's TSU1 and MRA5-L6 amplifier installed. Once upon a time it did work, trust me.

It is currently doing the Scan Twice - Plays Nothing issue.

I assumed that there was a larger issue in the tormat system, but after cleaning and burnishing all the contacts I could find, it's still not playing anything.

However

Whenever the mechanism goes past a record I've selected, I hear a faint click. This click only occurs on records I've selected, and it only happens once per record (if I select multiple records far enough apart, I'll hear a click ... click ... click), so I assume what's going on is the tormat is correctly saving the records, but the mechanism won't stop to pick them up, though it does reset them.

I only relevant manual I have a at the moment is a KD200 manual, no R manual yet, so I'm not sure I'm missing something in the R's troubleshooting guides.

Any ideas what could be producing the click and why the mechanism won't stop?

[64b1t]

I stuck a multimeter on the power connections for the trip solenoid, and lo-and-behold, as the mechanism moves over a selection, I see a brief spike to what looks like 12v. The solenoid does not appear to move. But that might be the source of the clicking.

[jukenorman]

Hi Liam,
Did you mean the Q models for the TSU1? Yes the tormat would obviously work with that unit but it might be difficult to help you based on the fact that we don't know how exactly it's wired. Do you still have the K tormat or is it a V/L or 201 tormat, do you know?

In your shoes, I think I might start with a test lamp and use the test lamp to make sure that the read out / detent switch system is functional. There is guidance on using the test lamp in some of the Seeburg trobleshooting sections. When you're satisfied that the read out is OK, you could turn your attention to the trip/sensing system. You would have to have a good understanding of the operation of magnetic core store I would suspect.

I cannot think what "click" you are hearing - but if the read out circuit is working, the test lamp would confirm it and that itself would allow you to move forward. It's quite a vague answer that I've given you but in the circumstances, it's probably all you're going to get!

The test lamp that I use is a standard panel mount 120VAC neon. It has a 56k series resistor. Ron once told me that the proper Seeburg test lamp was a neon with a 33k series resistor.

Norman.

[64b1t]

My Tormat Memory Unit is a 200TM2 and selector unit TSUI Code B.

Unfortunately I'm not entirely sure how it was done either. I certainly didn't do the conversion... And it's not particularly pretty, but it did work for over 20 years that I know of, until the whole machine failed a few years ago. Trying to bring it back to life?

I can possibly build a test lamp, but what do you think of the multimeter test? The solenoid gets voltage when the mechanism is supposed to trip, but doesn't move. Should replacing the solenoid be my next step?

[jukeboxmarty]

I'm assuming it will play a record if you trip it manually.

Does the trip solenoid fire correctly at the conclusion of a record?

A 200TM2 is correct for a 'K' model but they originally came with a card edge connector. Someone must have swapped out the connector with a Jones plug to work with the TSU1.

BTW, an 'R' manual won't help... An 'R' has a mechanical pin assembly. As Norman said the TSU1 originally came with a 'Q'.

[64b1t]

Just tried tripping manually.

I saw momentary sparking from the trip contacts block, and it picked up a record. When it placed the record back, it immediately picked it up again, and sparked.

Doesn't seem good/promising.

[64b1t]

In the KD200 manual, if mentioned sparking in selection 3b, but on the contact block. (Incorrect timing of Detent switch or incorrect alignment of TMU and Contact Plunger block). But doesn't really describe the issue here.

Here's a picture of the trip contact block.
photos.app.goo.gl/BA6tG6QafVJkvZ2V7



Sparking seems to occur in the second set of contacts from the top.

photos.app.goo.gl/18wb7BQ43eTXiHvv9

[jukeboxmarty]

I'm not saying it's perfectly normal for that contact to spark (it may need cleaning or filing), but it's fairly common.

That contact controls the motor capacitor circuit; It's got nothing to do with your problem.

[jukeboxmarty]

The contact block (contact plunger block) is what holds the pin plunger contacts beneath the Tormat Memory Unit.

[jukeboxmarty]

What you were calling the 'trip contact block' is actually called the 'cam switch contacts'.

All this stuff is in your 'K' manual. Maybe it's time to do some reading so we are all on the same page so to speak.

I would look through the mechanism adjustments section, most of this stuff is described.

Since the record seems to reload immediately after rejecting I'm not sure all of your issues are electrical.

[64b1t]

Yes, sorry, wrong terminology.

Here's a video showing what happens when I manually trip it.

photos.app.goo.gl/MzyTRvPbFmERL6pD6


Interestingly, if I turn it off and on again immediately, it will continue to pull and place the record. If I turn it off and leave it off for 20 seconds or so, it will release the record, scan twice, and return to home.

[jukeboxmarty]

I'm not sure your 'Trip Release Lever' in resetting into the downward position.

Try holding it down with you finger (don't touch the contacts!).

Also fix that motor capacitor contact (contact 'O'), it probably needs filing or maybe even replacing if it's too worn.

[jukeboxmarty]

Just saw your edit....

Interesting that it works after 20 seconds. Your whole problem may be in the trip circuit.

[64b1t]

Hold it down while the record is releasing?

Here's another funny one.

It appears that the reject button will result in the ceaseless pick up and put down dance.
If I manually trip it to reject though, seems it will release the record so long as it is BEFORE it's in the continuous pick up and put down.

Additionally, the machine reject seems very slow and weak compared to the manual trip.

[jukeboxmarty]

Bad 2050 tube?