NSM carriage won't play A sides

[teegee777]

So, torn between a rock and a hard place! As mentioned on previous posts the NSM Consul Classic ES160 had been stood for a long time and people suggested cleaning up the mechanism. However I kept giving it first aid until something went wrong, then fixed that and then a few days later something else happened and so on (sound familiar?) The latest problem was the BS switch (microswitch on mine). The MO relay wasn't holding in (even after reject button was held in for a while) which pointed to the microswitch which (sorry tested with a multimeter) proved to be faulty. The nearest replacement has a slightly shorter roller arm but appears to work. Whilst the carriage mechanism was out on the bench, I thought I'd clean it up and used what I thought were the equivalent lubrication oils/grease. I found at least three pivots or wheels completely stuck so cleaned them up and they appear to be working fine. I have an AC ANM motor so I could manually turn it and watch the complete picking, clamping process.

However now it's returned to the jukebox, it won't play the A side of records (B perfectly ok). It either won't "run in" or won't move within the track of the record (sticks on that one groove) The needle pressure seems much the same as the B side, and I guess normally the toner arm is allowed to follow the groove and move to the inside of the record. I can't see anything wrong at the moment. Could I have skipped some teeth or got some levers out of sequence by turning by hand? There is a slight difference where if I push the toner arm on the B side sideways the arm returns to centre nicely the A side is a bit lazy going to centre...............Next I want to talk about stereo/mono as I seem to have a jumper wire on the carriage between pins 1 on one connector (red) and pin10 on the other connector (white), which seems strange....perhaps I'll start another thread for that. Thanks..

[jukenorman]

Difficult to say, you didn't displace one of the tone arm springs? Lack of oil is something that NSMs particularly are prone to suffer from, I have found! You might think of posting a video somewhere?

Norman.

[Hildegard]

I might not have understood all right.
Did both sides - A and B - play fine before the carriage was taken out and cleaned?
Are the A-sides written in and read-out?
If I know right after selecting the carriage searches one side first and at the end switches to the search the other sides for selected songs. This gets done by activating a micro switch.

If the tonearm does not move at all from its rest position to play A side, then Normans ideas are right. Maybe something is not mounted right, the tone arm wire too stiff.

[teegee777]

Yes, thanks for replies. I was going to do a video but have been caught up all week working on it. As per normal, things continue to go from bad to worse. The latest is that it will play the B side but now the A side "ejects" as soon as the tone arm goes down. I've rechecked the micro switch and that seems to work ok. If I turn the AC motor by hand the micro switch operates the moment the stylus touches the record (is this too early or too late?). I notice the "braking" is approximately 1.5 to 2 seconds. The last thing it did before I've put the carriage back on the bench is that the motor didn't stop when the stylus touched down, so I guess MO relay wasn't dropped so I will need to see what is holding MO in, either the switch adjustment, faulty switch or another connection holding MO in. I have unplugged the volume/reject cable so it can't be that. I did reduce the tension on the stylus, I think it may only have to be 3 - 4 grams? is that right? and I guess the tension comes from the "opposite" spring,e.g the one that is pulling the stylus onto the record? Thanks all.

Note: Sorry, should have said the B side does the same now e.g. the ANM motor still runs,so off searching for a problem with MO not releasing

[jukenorman]

Hi Tony,
The A and B side transfer cycles are basically the same - with two differences. Firstly the motor rotation is the opposite direction and secondly the tone arm cradle is moved across to play the other side of the record. The reason for pointing that out is that hopefully you might be able to see what works (and why) for the B sides that doesn't work for the A sides.

Norman.

[teegee777]

Hi Norman (and all),

The mystery continues with the jukebox, it seems to be something to do with the MO relay not releasing and hence the motor keeps running and it ejects the record. I think I have the BS switch set correctly, but if anyone has a better method of adjusting it then I'm all ears ! The replacement microswitch was bought from a reputable place so should be OK, as mentioned before the roller arm is slightly shorter but I think I can adjust it OK. I have now done 3 videos, to try to explain (apologies for the loudness of the buzzer in the 2nd video). Typically the jukebox worked once in the last video, but then not again (this sounds mechanical/adjustment to me) but doesn't explain why the MO won't release.

NSM main problems youtu.be/Qvx_zRtReok

BS Switch check youtu.be/4N6xmULu7Dg

Intermittent failure youtu.be/N3YUfik2wIo

Thanks again,

Tony

[teegee777]

Well possibly good news. I "snipped" the orange wire on 02 05 which comes from the reject of the control and credit unit (10 04) and I have now played 10 records without a problem...... Although I have still got my "A" side issue. I'm going to check out what electrical condition is on the 10 04 lead tomorrow.

As for my "A" side issue do you think my toner arm is damaged? or is the "cut" (split?) normal? I'm just wondering whether it may have got damaged on the bench?

Thanks

    Tony

[jukenorman]

Hi Tony,
When you do the A side BS test manually, what happens after the BS switch opens if you then apply power, does it play?

Norman.

[teegee777]

Hi Norman, no unfortunately not. I'm now 99% sure that the fault is the reject wire coming from the control and credit unit. I have disconnected this and the B side plays as normal and to an extent the A side e.g. I have lost the automatic reject when the stylus touches the record issue. I haven't checked yet what signal is on the orange reject wire from the control and credit unit and why its there. I think I've read that if the record does not "run out" then after a 15 minute time out then the record will be rejected. My problem now is the A side not playing.It starts off OK and then after about 30 seconds to a minute it will play the same track again and again. If I move the arm further on it just skips and plays the same track again. I'm pretty sure the stylus tension is the same for A and B side. I'm now thinking about other adjustments for the toner arm, are there any service instructions for adjusting this? The tension seems quite high on the tone arm forward backward,but that must be the same for the B side. There's a guide pin (brown/copper coloured) which doesn't run in the side of the V so shouldn't be affecting the pressure/tracking. Thanks Tony

[jukenorman]

There are some manuals here nsmjukeboxmanuals.yolasite.com/manuals.php and although they aren't great quality, they should be good enough for tone arm adjustments, which you can find in ESII Service Manual for example.

Norman.

[teegee777]

To answer Norman's question above, e.g If I manually do the BS switch test on the A side and then add power, see link

youtu.be/t1GcPHltoJo Basically it does start the play motor but manually the toner arm wasn't in the start groove, when helped then it also was jumping.

The second link is the toner arm getting stuck? but even if moved on still won't play

youtu.be/Lwvz2iydQ94

Then with regard to Norman's comment on the manual being on-line, I have got a hard copy of that manual and unfortunately it doesn't really give me enough information to set the toner arm correctly.

Thanks again, Tony

[jukenorman]

Hi Tony,
Firstly are the tone arm bearings all well lubricated? Next, the counterbalance should be set for neutral ie as you move it in and out with no record, it should stay at that position for the full travel and not fall inwards or backwards at any point. Is something interfering, stiffness in the tone arm cable can sometimes prevent free movement? I would have though the basic instructions in the manual would have been sufficient.

Norman.

[teegee777]

Hi, Was it really March when I last looked at the jukebox ! I've been reasonably happy to keep playing B sides, but painting the house is almost finished so I took another look at the jukebox. I now know what's wrong but can't fathom out why yet. After the record is clamped, the tone arm guide and the braking lever are lifted.....my braking lever seems to remain on the post. If I manually lift it then the record will play. The tone arm guide appears to lift but the braking lever remains (however at times they appear to be "one piece"). So I'm not sure what is going on, it's very hard to see. I have swapped the two cam wheels (with each other) which appear to be what causes tone arm to lift. In my photos fig 8.4 is the tone arm lever and 8.5 is the lever which remains on the round post at the front. My other photo shows a spindle close to the 2 cam wheels which looks as if something is missing? can anyone advise? there is a slot in the spindle which normally indicates a place for a "e" washer.

Thanks Tony

[jukenorman]

Hi Tony,
I'm having difficulty identifying which area your photo refers to; I was looking at a scrap ES mech that I have lying around. Could ypu maybe post a wider angle photo?  It might well be that a part is missing and that is what is causing my confusion?

Norman.

[teegee777]

Hi Norman,
This picture is of the underside of the carriage rolled over on it's left side, you can see the balance on the bottom of the toner arm in the upper part of the photo, and the "trip" adjustment plate with the blue wire on.



Tony