ESX100 Problems

[paullperth]

Hi Norman,

Did some more digging around today. Won’t have much opportunity over the next few days as my workshop isn’t air-conditioned and the forecast temps for Sunday and Monday are 43c (109f) and 41c (106f).

I received Tony Miller’s book on Seeburg 60’s and 70’s mechanisms along with Seeburg Vol3 from Always Jukin’. Lots of good reading there and I think I finally understand how selection and write-in work!

I have replaced the SCR with a 2N5061. No difference. I did another check over all resistors again to make sure that the values are as per the schematic. No errors found. Voltages all seem to be ok. I resoldered the RCA plug and good contact is being made at the socket.

Nothing I have tried makes the mech trip without manual intervention.

If I manually trip the mechanism, a record will play. When it gets to the run out groove the amp goes into mute but the mechanism doesn’t trip.

I need to do work on the detent switch as advised and I have a new trip relay on order as it is absolutely the last thing I can try on the SCC. If there is no change after that the problem is obviously downstream.

One thing I noticed today when doing some checks with the neon lamp is that I don’t consistently get a flash when making selections. If I press A1 I always get a flash. B1/2 likewise but many others produce no flash at all. I guess I need to clean and lubricate the mechanism and make sure the contacts are clean. Unless there is some other potential cause?

Finally, I have taken some quick videos demonstrating what happens during write in and read out in the hope it might be helpful.

youtu.be/7lNUwwTL4q8?si=ZAsXF4j6r55mBENq

youtube.com/shorts/vrMHpyZg3tA?si=jhjJ7ZBagY1RXu9C

youtube.com/shorts/MEICA-xZjKs?si=55FRY2sVptG01H6T

Cheers,

Paul

[jukenorman]

Hi Paul,
Getting the battery trick to work (read-out & trip) is the first priority. I think you should get a more pronounced flash from the test lamp as it scans so it would very much look like the detent switch needs attention and it really is the obvious item to check anyway - when it cools down a bit!

Norman.

[paullperth]

Hello again

It has been a while since I gave any kind of update, mainly because it has been a pretty long hot summer and we’ve had an extended run of 40c plus days. Not inclined to work in a metal shed in that kind of weather!

So, this is where I am at. Spoiler alert: it still isn’t making any selections.

What I have done:

Rebuilt TSA9 amplifier. Sounds excellent.
Finally sorted out the SCC9 power supplies. I have 385v as write-in source which should be close enough. I tracked the problem down to a faulty brand new resistor.
Cleaned, degreased and regreased/oiled the mechanism and removed/cleaned the clutch. Redid the clutch 2/3/4 settings.
Replaced broken detent actuator that somebody managed to break when removing the clutch.
All contacts have been cleaned.
New tormat contact assembly on one side as it had been mangled at some point in its history.
I bought and fitted new isolators for the play control mechanism. Close inspection showed that elastic bands had been used as substitutes at some point but were falling apart.
Detent switch operation has been checked and is correct as far as I can tell. I did the test connecting a meter to the yellow lead on the contact and the other to ground. I got continuity/broken continuity as I manually scanned the mechanism.
I found two broken wires: The black wire connected to the trip solenoid and a green wire (trip relay hold) at the part of the cable where it “splits” from the audio portion of the cable. This has now reinstated end-of-record muting and arm lift/record return.

So, really good progress apart from the minor select a record and have it play thing lol!

What isn’t working: the battery test.

I am pressing on though. I still feel that I am making progress, although not in the area I would most like.

I have Ron Rich’s Seeburg Mechanism Guide and Tony Miller’s operation and troubleshooting guide and of course this wonderful forum with people like Norman and Marty.

I think I might try some more continuity checks on the wiring harness just in case there’s another break somewhere, perhaps the trip relay wire or something.

All suggestions welcomed

Paul

[jukenorman]

Hi Paul,

Obviously you have done a chunk of work but just as my last post, the priority is to get the battery test operational. This is pretty much the starting point of faultfinding any tormat Seeburg that isn't picking selections. It isn't overly complicated (I don't think so anyway) and between the documentation you already have and what is covered in the sticky - there is not really much more that can be added.

Norman.

[paullperth]

Hi Norman,

I fully agree. I’ve been eliminating possible causes as I have worked through the issues listed. I had tried most of the troubleshooting tips published without success. Nothing I tried would get the mechanism to stop or attempt to play. I guess a broken trip solenoid wire wouldn’t have helped!

Although it seems silly now with the benefit of hidsight, I only realised the issue with the power supply the other day. As per earlier postings, I was getting 375v at the fuse so assumed all was well. It was only after reading Tony Miller’s book that I decided to take another look. He says that there should definitely be 395v at pins 2&3 on TB31101. I checked and only had 127v!!

Tracing the voltages back through the circuit showed 385v on one side of a 36 ohm resistor and 127v on the other. A closer look and sure enough it was damaged. Replaced it and voila! Brand new faulty components. Who would have thought? (Yea, I know!)

Now that I know the voltage is absolutely correct I work my way through the troubleshooting steps again with correct voltages and a working mechanism.

I’ll report back when I have news.

[paullperth]

I am double-checking everything. In regard to possible selection system issues Tony Miller’s book says “if you have the nominal +395 present at the SCCTB3101 (the row of test points on the SCC) pins 6&7, but there is no dip in the voltage when you make a selection, this means that there has not been a complete circuit established between the Write-in capacitor and ground”.

I do not have any volts at 6&7. I have 200v at pin 1 (150v supply), 381v at
2&3 (Read Out load/source) 4&5 are ground and 8 is 27v and I have 27v there.

I have 40v and 24vAC elsewhere in the unit. I just can’t fathom out where the 395v at 6&7 should be coming from..

As I have said before, this is all new territory for me. I’ve got no frame of reference to draw from. I don’t even know when this unit last worked, if ever!!

That said, it would be really helpful if another member with any SCC unit could measure and confirm what voltage their unit shows at points 6&7.

Thanks,
Paul

[paullperth]

Hello Noman and everyone,

I have the towel ready and am just about to throw it. I spent today methodically going through Tony Miller’s troubleshooting guide. I have checked the read out, detent switch, detent switch timing and jiggling the RCA plug does nothing, nor does the battery test.

I do not have 395v at pins 6&7 of the SCC. This is necessary to check the write-in circuit. I have checked with the pricing unit connected and disconnected. I have checked it with everything disconnected. I have triple checked every component and tested for continuity across the entire board. I am obviously missing something pretty basic but I cannot see it for the life of me.

Tony M says”if, after unplugging the Pricing Unit, there is still no +395 present, the problem is in the SCC circuitry….with both the Pricing Unit and the Stepper unplugged, there is not much that could go wrong with the SCC”.

Clearly there is

The odds of me getting another SCC are zero. While I might have more luck getting a replacement 319021-2 board, I am reluctant to go down this path unless I can pinpoint which section/component on my board is faulty. Otherwise I am throwing good money after bad.

I also can’t stress enough that this isn’t a unit that was working one day and not the next. It has been through at least three sets of hands before mine. I have picked up a lot of other faults (pricing unit issues, trip relay etc) so progress has been made, just not where it needs to be.

I need someone to give me some voltages at various points around the board so I can see where mine differs. Otherwise I am just totally stuck. Thanks for reading this far!

Paul

[jukenorman]

Hi Paul,
I don't have either Tony Miller's book or Ron Rich's guide so it's not easy to fully understand the context of what Tony Miller was getting at. Attached below is the simplified schematic of the read-out circuit of your jukebox which you should also find in your manual. Forget the write-in - if that is an issue, it's a problem for another day. The read-out circuit is your only priority! Looking at the schematic below, you should be able (with the detent switch open) to trace 395V, or 388V as you have measured, through the 1/8A fuse to the detent switch.

For the battery test, you need a good D cell and when you apply the voltage to the tormat plug, the +ve goes to ground. The sense and trip circuit also has to function.

So first of all, can you confirm voltage at the detent switch.


Norman.

[paullperth]

Hi Norman

I have marked the voltages on the diagram below:

Cheers,

Paul

[jukenorman]

Hi Paul,
That looks fine. I think we must be missing something so it looks like we will have to revisit some things. Is the tormat nice and clean, particularly the plates running down the middle that provide the ground? Also the contact block wipers, are they making good connections? You have measured 385V at the detent switch (to ground), can you now measure the voltage across it (with the detent switch open). Can you the same with the reversing switch in the other position. There are two 15uF capacitors in the circuit before the fuse, did you change these out?

That will be enough for now!


Norman.

[paullperth]

Hi Norman

385v across the detent switch in all directions. Yes, I changed out the 15uf caps with new ones.

I have previously cleaned the tormat when I replaced a mangled contact on the “frog”. However, I have just done another visual inspection and I am seeing some arcing on the “old” contact as it travels down the tormat unit. I hooked the neon lamp up as well across the read out test point and am seeing some intermittence on the flashing of the bulb in both directions. By intermittence I mean “non flashing”, as if some points on the tormat aren’t being read. This was previously working fine so it looks as though I need to revisit this….

I’ll crack on first thing in the morning and see if I can get these things sorted.

Cheers,

Paul

[jukenorman]

Hi Paul,

Again that looks promising, assuming the detent switch and contact block are adjusted corrctly. What we haven't ruled out is a short to ground after the detent switch, although the arcing at the tormat rivets would seem to point away from that. To prove there is no short to ground insert a piece of card between the two middle contacts and the tormat plate and you should no longer see a voltage across the detent switch. Remove the card and the voltage reading should return.

I was doing a search of the forum and I found this in a post from Ron Rich "The common failure in all "solid state" control centers was the 56K, 2 watt resistor-- and the 36 Ohm 1/2 Watt right next to it".  Something else for you to consider.

Norman.

[paullperth]

Hi Norman

I did the ‘card trick’ you suggested and did lose voltage as predicted. I also hooked up the neon bulb across the detent switch and am getting flickering as the unit scans, consistent with it opening and closing as expected.

However I now have issues with not getting any flickering of the neon bulb nor any changes in read out voltage at the SCC test point. I have looked at the “frog” and double-checked the adjustments and all seems correct. I will need to trace out the connections to see if there is something awry. I have previously replaced one of the contacts and the scan was one of the things that was consistent on this unit till now.

Oh well, one step forward three back. Seems to be par for this particular course .

Regarding the resistors you mentioned, yes I have changed those. The 36 ohm resistor was one that had previously been replaced but has burned out so replaced again! I had read about the 56k resistor and that 2w was too low. I have replaced with a 6w.

Cheers,


Paul

[jukenorman]

Hi Paul,
I'm getting some mixed messages here. The 36ohm resistor should not be burning out! Have you replaced it and it's subsequently burned out? In which case, check the circuitry from the fuse through the 56k to the capacitor, 36ohm etc to the detent switch etc (that area). When the detent switch closes, the charge in the capacitor is discharged and the 56k will current limit the source voltage. You might make a case that 2W is pushing it for the 56k but 3W would be absolutely adequate.

Otherwise I think that the circuit is sound (the card on the ground contacts shows no shorts). I think maybe you might be getting confused with the test point - is it the A or B test point (in the above diagram) you're looking at? And are you checking with respect to ground (ie you're not breaking the circuit)?

The 36ohm resistor is a concern though, tell us the history.


Norman.

[paullperth]

Hi Norman,
Sorry I wasn’t clear. The original 36 ohm resistor had gone high so was changed when I first overhauled the board. I replaced it with a locally sourced (Chinesium) metal film resistor that was substandard and failed. I replaced it with one from the same batch and that too failed. I suspect that it wasn’t really a 1/2 watt or was really designed for 50v rather than 400v. Anyway, I sourced some quality resistors from Digikey and all has been well since.

To answer your other question, I am testing at point B (terminals 2/3 of the SCC). As I understand it, the voltage at this point when in scan should vary as the contact passes over each toroid contact, peaking at each end of the scan cycle. When the neon lamp is connected (terminal and ground), the varying voltage is represented by flickering. Varying voltage is displayed on a digital and analogue multimeter. I used to have flickering but now have steady illumination.

I understand that if the voltage is constant at this point during scan, there is a broken connection between the terminal, detent timing switch and the frog itself. This is what I need to trace out as I may have disturbed something when checking the frog.

Paul