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Post by mauro on Jul 8, 2018 18:15:16 GMT
I've had this jukebox sitting around for years and with a bit of work had it selecting and playing nicely.
I buttoned it all up again and thought I'd put it through its paces and no luck, latch solenoid pulls in, buttons work and release but pins fails to pop up now.
I've been through the manual but still haven't had any success.
I know this is a common problem and most likely something I'm overlooking, so once again I seek the wisdom of the great minds on this forum.
Any ideas of likely culprits?
Thanks Mauro
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Post by mauro on Jul 8, 2018 18:58:49 GMT
Some further information,
Seems that the selection solenoids are pulsing but the plunger is missing the pins.
Is there a way to align these?
Seems the wobble plate moves freely back and forth which seems suspicious to me.
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Post by mauro on Jul 8, 2018 19:45:03 GMT
Ok, I think the pin pushers are mushroomed on the ends and and getting stuck between the pins, I may have to drop the junction box again, remove the solenoids and slightly file the offending pin pushes.
Now the C and D selections seem to be selecting the wrong pins.
For example selecting D4 plays C4 and C5 plays B5.
Where would this issue be?
I'm guessing in the selector key switches.
Sorry about the 3 posts in a row but more info is always better than less.
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Post by Ron Rich on Jul 9, 2018 3:11:56 GMT
Hi Mauro,
Are you sure the correct pin is being released, or is the incorrect pin being released ? By any chance has one of the "index" tabs is broken off a plug ? Also-- check that the fish paper is glued to the metal behind the key board- ABCD switches---this model does all types of strange things, without it !
Ron Rich
also
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Post by mauro on Jul 9, 2018 18:41:33 GMT
Ron, the manual doesn't show the fish paper location.
The C,D buttons have a piece to insulate it from the latch switches mounting plate but the A,B has none.
Nothing there to interfere with the buttons though.
As for the pins raising, yes, the wrong ones pop up sometimes when using the C and D
Very often it is the record that is 180 degrees from the one selected when the correct pin is raised and sometimes its random when the wrong pin is raised.
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Post by Ron Rich on Jul 9, 2018 19:54:24 GMT
Mauro,
Don't pay attention to the manual in this case--what happens is that after years of people pushing buttons and just leaning against that keyboard, it sags, and shorts out the buttons intermittently. Loosen the keyboard, pull it outward, and make sections--see what happens-- Ron Rich
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Post by mauro on Jul 10, 2018 0:22:34 GMT
Ron,
I pulled the keyboard completely away from the machine and made some D selections.
Same results?
I read about a similar problem on an 1800 and the stop pawls were suggested to be gummed up.
Could this be the case?
I dismissed it because it only happens on C and D selections.
Thanks for your suggestions!!
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Post by robnyc on Jul 10, 2018 1:49:27 GMT
Mauro, the "A" group does not drive either the driver solenoid nor the stoppers so, do you ever get wrong selections in that group?
Those coils are DC and if the old selenium rect is sagging under load it will affect the accuracy. The changer motor is also DC and any sag can be compounded if it happens to be running while you are also selecting. I always changed out the old rect in favor of a silicon bridge. It boosts both the current regulation and voltage.
Finally, those older designs used copper rings on certain relays to delay either pull-in or fall-out (later models used capacitors) while this is unlikely the cause of mis-timing of the driver here, I had a problem in several Seeburg steppers where the transfer relay sometimes fell out too soon. Finding no other cause, I just added a 47 ohm resistor in series with a 33mfd capacitor across the coil to increase the hold slightly. In some cases a properly polarized diode is adequate.
RobNYC
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Post by mauro on Jul 10, 2018 21:22:10 GMT
Hi Rob,
Thanks for joining in.
I never considered that but I think if it were the selenium rectifier it would affect many selections and not just the D and C? I could be wrong.
The carousel turns quickly and detents (many times) in the correct spot but then the wrong arm lift the record directly opposite the selection.
This machine sat for many years before I got it, my guess is 10-15 years and another 5 in my heated garage. Although when I got it home 5 years ago I took the mech out serviced it and lubricated it very well before I put it away.
It was cycling at that time but I never did any real testing as I just wanted to go through a few cycles before I put it away to collect the parts that were needed.
The manual is tough to decipher as I'm sure it was written for the techs of the time, any troubleshooting suggestions here would be most useful!
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Post by Ron Rich on Jul 10, 2018 21:43:14 GMT
Mauro,
I'm still curious--did you pin it down as to if the correct pin is being released, or is the carriage stopping at the correct pin, but lifting the opposite side ?? Have you, or some one, "lubricated" the back stop pawls--are they still un-"adjusted" (factory paint intact) ? Ron Rich
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Post by robnyc on Jul 10, 2018 23:29:38 GMT
Mauro, I'm going to echo Ron's question and ask if the correct pin is being raised. For some reason I got the impression that was the case, but let's hear it outright.
-IF- the correct pin is punched the suspicion falls to the reversing switch actuated by the crank or the alignment of the pinbank or tampered stop pawls.
IIRC, on the 100-104 machines the when the crank hit a pin it causes the "reversing switch actuator" to release downward and shift a plate that actually causes the reversing switches to switch. If the switch(s) are misadjusted or the linkage sluggish it will affect the timing. If too late the crank jams against a pin, if too early it will select a slot just ahead of the one you want.
When microswitches begin to fail people try to adjust them into proper operation and this is when the problem compound.
I have only the 2104 data and drawing to go with, but this was pretty much how they did it through all the lower selection machines after the 1800.
RobNYC
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Post by mauro on Jul 11, 2018 0:30:43 GMT
Ron,
The wrong pins are being raised now with C and D selections.
The locator pins are all intact.
This Jukebox seems to do what it wants.
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Post by mauro on Jul 11, 2018 0:32:07 GMT
I haven't touched the backstop pawls, yet. But they are working fine for A and B selections.
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Post by robnyc on Jul 11, 2018 1:28:07 GMT
"The wrong pins are being raised now with C and D selections"
It will be easier to diagnose this problem if you remove the pinbank and keyboard and located then just outside the machine while keeping them connected.
See if the stop solenoids are always firing and make sure the rocker plate and associated parts are free to rotate back to 'home".
Connect a DC volt meter to the low-DC supply and observe the sag when a selection is made. See if one group is causing excessive drain. The selection process actually take more current than the mech motor, so a sagging rectifier or resistance in the keyboard sliders can cause inadequate voltage to the solenoids.
These are the sorts of problems that surface in all restorations. They are just a little more annoying when you haven't dealt with them before (i speak from many maddening hours of testing).
Rob
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Post by mauro on Jul 12, 2018 0:23:56 GMT
Rob,
Thanks for the methodology.
I didn't mention earlier but the selenium rectifier HAS been replaced by a 25 amp silicon bridge.
I hooked up my analogue meter to the DC supply and read -36 vdc at standby, during cycling and playing the voltage dropped to -30.5 vdc and stayed steady, then returned to -36 when cycle was completed. Everything seems to be moving freely inside the junction box as well. I believe this is normal?
Is there a next step?
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