Wurlitzer 2204 mechanism inspection

[e093116]

Hi,

I have the mechanism removed from the cabinet and am wondering if there are any common things I should check before powering up for the first time?  I have a new belt and mounting hardware for the turntable motor.

I did find one broken wire (in the bundle coming out of the "box" at the bottom of the assembly) but that's about it.  I noticed that the mech has "wrecked" written on it in sharpie and "cleaned 3/79" in pencil next to the carousel motor.  Everything that I've checked seems to move freely and haven't found anything that is stuck.

Is there an easy way to cycle the mechanism by hand before reinstalling?  On Seeburgs, I've been successful in setting up and cycling the mech by hand (to convince myself "all is well") before powering up.  This is the first Wurlitzer mech of this style I've been into.

Thanks,

Bill

[Ron Rich]

Hi Bill,
On Seeburg's, I HOPE you've been turning the motor coupling, NOT the turntable ! On a WurliTzer--not much I can see doing-- The one thing I would do first, is check the "back stop" operation. Also check the record lift arm tips--- Ron Rich

[e093116]

Hi Ron,

Good call on the lift arm tips, one of them was folded over and while it would load the record, it would drop it on return, and not into the same slot! Luckily, I was just "testing" with one "scrap" record.

Overall, and with the rebuilt amp mentioned in the other post, everything "worked" for the entire phono, but I still need to clean and adjust the mech.  Yesterday was the first time I powered it on after working on it since January.  I ordered a few parts today that should be enough to finish this one off this coming weekend.

Thanks,

Bill

[e093116]

Hi,

I got the mech degreased and lubricated over the weekend, it runs much smoother and quieter, not to mention how much better it looks.

Anyway, I made a few minor adjustments but have been unable to eliminate a "warble" that is really annoying.  The turntable motor has been oiled and has new belt and mounts.  The record clamp portion of the mech was disassembled and cleaned.  The tonearm has a new spring and the pressure has been set to around 10g.  the manual calls for 10-12g, is this reasonable?  I have a "green" replacement cartridge/needle.

The warble is fairly consistent and I believe it is occurring at a frequency of 1/rev.  Any suggestions as to what to check?

Thanks,

Bill

[Ron Rich]

Bill,
Just off the top of my pointy head, NOTHING, comes to mind-- I would think, if you can't see what is causing that, it all most must be something internal, within the turntable ?? Ron Rich

[robnyc]

Mar 18, 2019 11:25:24 GMT e093116 said:

Hi,I got the mech degreased and lubricated over the weekend, it runs much smoother and quieter, not to mention how much better it looks.
Anyway, I made a few minor adjustments but have been unable to eliminate a "warble" that is really annoying.  The turntable motor has been oiled and has new belt and mounts.  The record clamp portion of the mech was disassembled and cleaned.  The tonearm has a new spring and the pressure has been set to around 10g.  the manual calls for 10-12g, is this reasonable?  I have a "green" replacement cartridge/needle.
The warble is fairly consistent and I believe it is occurring at a frequency of 1/rev.  Any suggestions as to what to check?
Thanks,
Bill

Bill, this was an ongoing problem with those early carousel models. Every one I owned had some degree of wow and older operators mentioned it as well.

The problem is that the T-T is neither coupled tightly enough to the motor nor large enough in mass to prevent speed irregularities and no snubber roller to take out the tension varying.. The extra-heavy tracking makes matter worse as the resistance of the styli against the record varies with even slight warps.

The only simple kludge that works is to add wave washers around the turntable end of the shaft to add some slight resistance and thus effectively prevent the t-t from responding fast enough to make an audible wow.  It is a PIA to obtain and install suitable washers -so I only did this once when I was using a 2400S for commercial service in 1988.  Otherwise, I just reduce the tracking to nor more than 3 gm (stereo models with magnetic carts) and 5-6 gm for those old cobra types and just live with the flaws.

The later 33-45 mech was noticeably better in this regard. Lower rumble too.

RobNYC

[Ron Rich]

Rob, Bill,
WurliTzer made several changes in the turntable "system", over the years-- I always wondered why ?? Rob, I don't understand what you mean by "--not coupled tightly enough--" as the TT is belt driven--which brings me to wonder if the correct size belt is in use ?? Ron Rich

[e093116]

Ron, Rob,

Thanks for the comments.

I've actually ordered two belts from Victory Glass, and they are two different lengths. Unfortunately, use of either belt, or both at the same time, doesn't yield much improvement.

Ron brings up an interesting issue, I was wondering if a slightly shorter belt would provide more positive coupling?  With the shortest new belt I have, I can measure it and order a few slightly smaller sizes from industrial distribution.  If it did, I suppose the aftermarket would offer the improved part...

Also, I noticed that most records don't sit flat when clamped on the turntable. It's almost like one of the 3 record clamp levers isn't providing as much clamping force as the other two.  Would shimming the spring provide a bit more clamping force?

Finally, Rob, you mention adding a wave washer, can you tell me in the exploded view where you add this item?  I had items 1-8 disassembled, but didn't touch items 9-19.  I see a bearing in there as item 15, is this something that needs to be cleaned/serviced?

Thanks again to you both.

Bill

  

 

[robnyc]

Bill, your remark about the pilot clamp finger brings up some other points. I've never had that problem but it could happen if the disk that retracts the pilot is not fully clear of the rollers that pull it back. This would also result in additional wow and flutter. There should be around 1/16th to 1/8th in clearance with even a thin record mounted. I loosen the actuating cable using the adjustment screw at the end of the cam follower arm so that the cable goes slightly limp when record is fully mounted. This will mean the arm with the retraction rollers is fully released.

Another thing to check is for the presence of a ball bearing at the end of the motor worm and that there is some pressure from the copper spring that presses against it. This keeps the motor shaft from moving laterally and causing wow. Check also that the worm and gear are intimate but not binding. Keep them well lubed.

When I get back I'll scan in an exploded to show where I put the wave washers.

RobNYC

[e093116]

Hi Rob,

Thanks for the feedback.

The cable you mentioned has a bit of slack in it like you mentioned.

I found the rubber ring on the turntable was misaligned with the clamp fingers. I thought I had this correct when I reassembled, but it must have moved a bit. I can see the gap you mentioned and it is consistent around the diameter.

With the adjustments, the wow is much improved but not perfect.

Thanks again for your help.

Bill

[e093116]

Hi guys,

Minor update, I went through the motor & gears and found the bearing in the end of the motor shaft/worm gear was flat spotted.  Unfortunately, replacing the ball with one that is actually round didn't do much to improve the situation.

I noticed on the exploded view that it looks like there is a washer between the ball and the copper spring?  It's not numbered on the exploded view and if it's supposed to be there, it's missing...

Finally, I ran the motor with and without the gear installed.  With the motor by itself, things were "quiet".  When I added the gear, I can hear some noise when a couple of gear teeth hit the worm, which I think manifests itself as the wow I can hear when playing records.  I cleaned and carefully studied the gear teeth and didn't find any imperfections.  I also tried to adjust the mesh with the motor running to try to find a "happy place" but I couldn't completely make the noise go away.  I'm wondering if it's worth replacing that gear?

Thanks,

Bill

[robnyc]

Bill, the item around the ball bearing is actually a felt ring to retain oil. They were often missing -easy enough to make.

Below is a scan of the arch components. I was told to try the wave washers in the set directly behind the t-t pilot so in items 13-16. Knowing me I probably experimented with putting them between 11 and 12 -directly behind the pulley in with the existing washer. The idea was to damp the action of the t-t and flywheel so that it didn't respond so quickly to fluctuations and slight imbalances but not to make it so tight that is didn't coast at all with power off.

www.fileconvoy.com/dfl.php?id=g1298553c4131e91110001578832671309ead2f3cd0

Replacing the gear at the motor isn't worthwhile IMO.

If practical. post either a video with sound or just audio and I may be able to tell you if further efforts are worthwhile. As I mentioned, there was always a bit of wow in these. Only the washers did anything to ameliorate it enough that i felt OK using a 2400 commercially.

[e093116]

Rob,

Thanks for the guidance.

I installed the wave washer behind the flywheel/driven pulley assy with good results. I used Grainger # 6ZA21 (0.460" ID, 0.760" OD, 0.015" thick) for the wave washer.

I found that I could tighten the nut retaining the flywheel assy and "tension-ize" the stack to varying levels...in fact my initial adjustment was too tight and I was slowing the turntable down (41-42 rpm).   But it is easy to back the nut off and readjust.

At the end of the day, adding the wave washer made a world of difference, I can actually use/listen to this phono now!

Thanks again for your help.

Bill

 

[Ron Rich]

Bill,
Cool--thanks for this posting--enjoy your "tension-ized" muzic !!
Ron Rich

[e093116]

Hi guys,

One last question.

When the carousel motor reverses, I can hear a creaking/ticking sound...wondering if this is normal?

I hear the exact same noise on about half of the youtube videos that are out there for this model, especially on the ones that are "tech" videos with the glass up and the back panels off.  Unfortunately, I don't have a similar phono or any buddies with one to compare directly against!  It sounds the same as in this video at the 2:00 mark:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHOsjOAHMUI

Thanks again.

Bill