|
|
Post by jukingeo on Nov 22, 2020 20:30:59 GMT
Hello All,
A very long time ago, more than 15 years ago, I had purchased a Seeburg 220 jukebox and went through a full tear down and restoration of it. I had done the following:
1) Dismantled, cleaned and relubricated the mechanism and went through the entire adjustment procedure for the mechanism and the contacts.
2) Recapped (and replaced bad resistors in) the Selection Receiver and installed new tubes. 3) Recapped (and replaced bad resistors in) the Amplifier and installed new tubes.
4) The cabinet has been repainted / and I had put grey formica on the sides. 5) Chrome has been rechromed. 6) New side glass has been purchased and installed.
In all, I managed to get about 90% of the jukebox completed. Things I didn't fully restore are
1) The title board and the "STEREOPHONIC" sign. 2) The credit / cancel unit. 3) The stepper. 4) I am missing one of the v-shaped 10 title strip holders. But as I recalled, I only had four good ones. That last one was broken.
I managed to get as far as to have the jukebox fully operational on free-play only. I got to the point of cleaning up the title board and then just a bunch of things happening in my life caused me to stop at that point, including moving out of my parent's house from where the jukebox was located. In the interim my parents passed away and I had placed the jukebox in storage for two years. Last year (2019), I bought a new house and was finally reunited with my Seeburg 220, but with many things having to be done upon moving in and then the layoff of work due to Covid-19, the jukebox just sat in my basement.
A week ago I was looking at it and have decided that it has been sitting far too long unused. I have designed a rec-room in the basement that is under construction as we speak and I want the jukebox to be a focal point of the rec-room.
Now, even though I am an experienced electronics technician for both tube and solid state equipment, and I have restored a few jukeboxes already, I have been out of the loop with jukeboxes for a very long time and I am not sure where to start at this point. I am afraid to just plug the jukebox in and fire it up. I worried mostly about the 'fire' part of that sentence. So one thing that comes to mind is to slowly bring it up on a variac hooked up to a Dim Bulb Tester. That would be a slow way to bring up the electronics. But what about the mechanism? Since it has been through a move into storage for two years and then moved again into my new home. Should I go through the adjustments and lubrication again? In terms of the cartridge, would that still be good? It was used, but in good shape after my restoration.
In turned to look at some of the old forums to ask some questions, I have found a great many are no longer here. Further, some Jukebox veterans I dealt with are no longer around such as:
1) John Durfee 2) Vern Tisdale.
I have located Ken Arnold from A1 Jukebox, but see that his site is on hiatus as well.
So right of the bat much has changed. The main jukebox forum was an odd site, but it was very popular and was text based only. I don't remember it, but I think it was part of an antique radio forum. It was mostly a message board rather than a forum. At any regard, that was in the past and I would like to know what the current BIG jukebox site is now. In my search I have come across this one and signed up for it and I figured I would ask some questions and find out who is still around from when I first started with jukeboxes in the late 90's and also any new big names that have come up.
I would figure I would find out what I can before I plug my machine in and potentially cause any damage to it. One of the things I remember clearly was how long and how intense the rebuild was on my machine...and yet I was so close to completing it before things in my life changed. But now I walk my my machine every day and more and more I want to see it running again. I am just afraid to just plug it in without getting some advice first.
Down the road I do intend to continue with the restoration of the credit / cancel unit and the stepper as I want to hook a 3W1 wallbox to it, but for now, I just want it to do what it did when I last powered it up and heard it play some records.
A couple of things I know I will want right off the bat is one of the title strip holders and also a replacement "STEREOPHONIC" sign on the top. I used to get parts like this from John Durfee when he was in Massachusetts and while the website is still up, many links are broken and now I see a Florida address there. So I am not sure if he is around anymore, or if he is still selling jukebox parts. I do remember the last time I talked with him, he mentioned wanting to sell his business.
I heard sideways that Vern Tisdale passed away, so I am not sure if anyone took over his business, but he was another I dealt with often.
Ken Arnold was another I dealt with for reproduction parts. I see his site is up, but in hiatus.
Anyway, so that is the scoop. I am hoping to get my machine back up before Christmas. Much has gone into the restoration so far. It is a beautiful machine and I no longer can bear walking by it and not seeing it lit up or used.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thank you,
Geo
|
|
|
|
Post by Ron Rich on Nov 22, 2020 23:29:44 GMT
If it's been less then 10 years since you did the amp on this phono, I would not worry about a power up-- At the most, I might stick a dim bulb on it allow time for tube warm up-- then run the motor (which turns on the 5U4), and allow it to scan,several times before removing the bulb. Mech should be properly oiled before much use. See the stickies in the Seeburg section here--
See the list of suppliers in our FAQ's section-- Ron Rich
|
|
|
|
Post by jukingeo on Nov 23, 2020 14:35:49 GMT
Hello Ron,
No, it has been more than 15 years actually, but definitely less than 20 years and yes, the amplifier, the Tormat Selection Receiver, the Tormat itself, and the mechanism was completely taken apart and redone/readjusted/relubricated. All tubes are still new as I didn't use the jukebox much.
As for suppliers, I didn't know who was around anymore. For the most part, I will not be needing much for my machine. I think my biggest concern is the cartridge as it is still the original redhead cartridge. I don't know how long these last. But I guess that would be a question for the Seeburg section.
Thanks for the info. I mainly posted the question as I wanted to do the right thing to avoid potentially blowing something up since I have not used the machine in a while.
Geo
|
|
|
|
Post by Ron Rich on Nov 23, 2020 14:47:33 GMT
Hi Geo,
Yea-- might want to use the Variac-- but I don't think in combination with the dim lamp ? Read the "stickies" on Seeburg needles-- Ron Rich
|
|
|
|
Post by jukingeo on Nov 23, 2020 17:57:47 GMT
Hi Geo, Yea-- might want to use the Variac-- but I don't think in combination with the dim lamp ? Read the "stickies" on Seeburg needles-- Ron Rich I think what I might do is try the dim bulb test first to make sure it fires up without anything shorting. If that is good, then I will go to the variac and slowly bring the voltage up so the caps slowly build a charge on them. I probably do this without the power tubes in first and take some voltage readings on the pins around the output tubes. If things look good, then I will put the output tubes back in and again bring it up slow on a variac. If it passes the smoke test then I believe I should be good. |
|
|
|
Post by gameroomfan on Nov 24, 2020 23:56:30 GMT
I read your post with great interest, as I am in the exact same situation, only involving two machines, a Seeburg KD200 and a Wurlitzer 2150. Both partially restored, electronics recapped and then covered with a blanket for years.
I’ve decided to assume the caps should be fine, they are the newer type, and have never been exposed to a current or voltage. Both machines will be re lubed. As far as adjustments goes, my experience with EM pinballs is that often making whole sale adjustments sometimes can can cause more problems than leaving things as is. So, I am going to first inspect, and manually operate key switches and relays and observe contact closure, etc and only adjust obvious out of spec components. Then test operation, and only adjust additional items causing problems.
One area I’m still a bit confused about are selenium rectifiers. The Seeburg has three, a main power rectifier, a ‘smoothing’ rectifier in the preamp circuit, and one on the RCSUI/SEU1 board. Current understanding is that main power rectifiers shouts always be replaced, but not sure about the other ones. I’m also unsure about how to spec a replacement. ( bridge type, diode with resistor, etc)
My go to source used to be Bill Butterfield in No Cal. His website is still up, but have yet to try and contact him.
I, for one would be be interested in how your ‘start up’ goes. I’ve got some missing parts to track down, etc to do before I get there.
Alex
|
|
|
|
Post by Ron Rich on Nov 25, 2020 3:49:59 GMT
Hi Alex, I would NOT "wholesale replace" the selenium's on the Seeburg-- Look at them-- if the paint is still OK, generally speaking, they are just fine ! Run the power up and check them-- the one on the mech, if bad will prevent detenting. See the "fusing post" sticky, in the Seeburg section. On the WurliTzer-- same story-- look carefully for "paint blisters" prior to power up--should it be necessary,I would use a 35 watt unit to replace it, and fuse the AC in line at about 1 amp--- Ron Rich
BTW-- Bill Butterfield is still very much in the business ! See our FAQ's section for info on who is--
|
|
|
|
Post by gameroomfan on Nov 25, 2020 19:46:27 GMT
Thanks for the reply, Ron. The Seeburg rectifiers all look fine, as new, in fact. And on the Wurlitzer, I just checked and looks like that one has been replaced. So, I am good to go.
Glad to hear Bill is still in the biz!
Alex
|
|
|
|
Post by jukingeo on Nov 25, 2020 22:16:53 GMT
I read your post with great interest, as I am in the exact same situation, only involving two machines, a Seeburg KD200 and a Wurlitzer 2150. Both partially restored, electronics recapped and then covered with a blanket for years. I’ve decided to assume the caps should be fine, they are the newer type, and have never been exposed to a current or voltage. Both machines will be re lubed. As far as adjustments goes, my experience with EM pinballs is that often making whole sale adjustments sometimes can can cause more problems than leaving things as is. So, I am going to first inspect, and manually operate key switches and relays and observe contact closure, etc and only adjust obvious out of spec components. Then test operation, and only adjust additional items causing problems. One area I’m still a bit confused about are selenium rectifiers. The Seeburg has three, a main power rectifier, a ‘smoothing’ rectifier in the preamp circuit, and one on the RCSUI/SEU1 board. Current understanding is that main power rectifiers shouts always be replaced, but not sure about the other ones. I’m also unsure about how to spec a replacement. ( bridge type, diode with resistor, etc) My go to source used to be Bill Butterfield in No Cal. His website is still up, but have yet to try and contact him. I, for one would be be interested in how your ‘start up’ goes. I’ve got some missing parts to track down, etc to do before I get there. Alex
Hello Alex,
Well, I only have the one machine, but it was just changes in my life that had caused me to put things on hold. I had bought the machine just prior to my engagement to my wife and I had moved out of my parents house where the machine was. So it didn't receive much attention thereafter and I ended up just covering it and it had been placed in the corner of the basement. While I never forgot about it, I just never had time to get back to it.
As for the cap motor, there had to be a reason why I didn't replace it. I vaguely recall reading that as long as there are no speed problems with the motor, then it doesn't have to be changed. It is not an electrolytic cap, nor a paper cap and that might have to do with the longevity on it. But again, given the many years I have been out of the loop with jukeboxes, I do need quite a memory refresher.
I have since taken the mech cover off and it does look really good underneath, but then again, since I did the full restore on it, I don't even think the machine had more than about 50 plays on it. I did look into the lube pipes on the Bodine motor and, yeah, they are dry. So it the mech definitely looks to need lubrication. I thought as well that the manual operation you mentioned above was a good idea and I had used the motor shaft to move the mechanism and also (manually) trip it and put it through a cycle, both A side and B side and it fully works without any binding and it has a good solid detent into place. So mechanically, it looks sound. As for a 'whole scale' adjustments...that was done when I had completely tore down and cleaned the mechanism. I think before I power it up, what I will do is get a feeler gauge in there and check the contact adjustments to make sure they are still in line. If the contacts are fine, then I might do a power up test (with a dim bulb tester) with no tubes in the amplifier to check out mechanism under power and also run some selection tests. If that works, then I would go with a variac test. I think with the tubes in the amplifier, bringing the system up slowly with the variac, would not be as a shock to the caps in there, which are now potentially about 16-18 years old.
As for the selenium rectifiers, I think that was another thing I remember leaving alone. I know as I am staring at one right now, a green one on the mechanism, right near the motor cap. I think I did replace the power supply ones though, but I do remember something about the one in the pre-amp and that might be still there as well. I have not been that far yet. I am hoping to get back into the machine Friday, after Thanksgiving.
Bill Butterfield. Yes, I remember that name. He redid amps, if I am not mistaken...pretty expensive too. I mostly dealt with Vern Tisdale when it came to the amp electronics and I bought everything to do my amp and TSU through him.
I do remember that unlike with my attempts at restoring pinbank machines, this was my first Tormat machine, and after cleaning the Tormat connections and redoing the TSU, it worked on the first try. I don't know if that was luck or what have you, but unlike many that would complain about the Tormat system, I actually prefer it over the pinbank. Those I found much more difficult to restore.
Well, as I said, I did manage to get the jukebox up and running from a free-play point of view. I know the Credt/cancel unit and the stepper still needs to be gone through. There is the one title strip holder and the Stereophonic sign on top that would all that is needed on cosmetics. I was VERY close to finishing the machine. So I am hoping it doesn't need anything major. I would think (as of now), the most expensive thing would be the Stereophonic sign. I wanted to get one of these from John Durfee before I was sidetracked, but before I put the jukebox in storage, I wanted to get it and even though John's website is still up, it doesn't seem like anyone is home. I have noticed the address change on the site though. John's warehouse was in Mass, but the address there now is a Florida address. So I am not sure if he is still in business or not.
Nice tip on the paint on that rectifier. As I said to Alex above, I was staring right at that selenium rectifier on the mech, near the motor cap, but it looks almost new, and I figured there was a reason why I left it. I do recall the one in the amp too, for the preamp section. I was told to leave that one alone too. I think I only replaced the ones in the power supply. I will have to get in the amplifier and TSU and look them over again, but I think they should be fine.
|
|
|
|
Post by jukingeo on Nov 27, 2020 16:39:03 GMT
Hello All!
I hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving.
Well, today (Black Friday), I have decided to go through the jukebox and as I said above I have taken off the mech cover already and inspected that. Today, I have decided to take a different approach than planned and since the TSU and SHFA were not connected (as it was since storage), I have decided to removed them and look them over as well. In the process of that, I have taken some pictures.
...Alright, it seems this forum has exceeded its attachment space limit. Not for nothing, that is pretty lame. Now I can't show you the insides of my machine. Alright then I will just describe my findings. Since I mentioned my findings of the mech already, I will skip to the amplifier.
First off, the amplifier that came with the jukebox is not the original one, it is an SHFA5 instead of an SHFA1. In a way, it was a godsend for I heard how dastardly it is to recap an SHFA1. On the inside, it has been fully recapped and many resisters were replaced. All of the plate resisters were place and most of the cathode resisters were replaced. Just about all of the grid resistors are still original. More then likely I just replaced the out of tolerance resistors. All the selenium rectifiers are still there. My memory kicked in and I do recall that the selenium rectifiers were for the AGC circuit and I was told that replacing them is not a good idea. So I left them there. I didn't see anything out of place in the amplifier, and I had even added a dedicated fuse for the amp transformer. So I believe my work with the amp section is completed and I should be good to go there.
Moving on to the TSU. Given that I have a model 220 and not a 222, mine has the stepper in it. But as I recalled, I didn't go through it. However, upon taking out the TSU and flipping it over, I was pleasantly surprised that I DID recap it. I think the thing that I didn't do with it was adjust it. So that would still have to be done.
As with the amplifer, I have fused some of the secondary lines of the power transformer. First and foremost was the trip solenoid line. I heard this could be a huge issue if the solenoid shorts and I remembered that. Another line that I have fused is the 30v line and I have noticed that I have NOT replaced the selenium rectifier here. The original is still there. However, one thing I have noticed was that there is a fuse only on one leg of the transformer and it is a a full wave bridge rectifier. I have no idea why I only fused one side. So it looks like I have to fix that. The last line I fused, I traced back to the selection circuit and the 25 volt line. I think I did this due to the fact that if the latch bar solenoid went, the line is protected. I didn't add a fuse to any of the filament lines as those are high current draw. More than likely if a filament line shorts, it would immediately blow the primary. The only other line in question would be the B+ line. It isn't fused. I am not sure if I should fuse it, but with my memory coming back to me, I think I didn't fuse that line because the voltage was higher than the 250v rating on most fuses. Now I know a fuse is a current device and not a voltage device, but one thing that popped in my head is if a B+ fuse just blew slightly, leaving a gap inside, it could start arcing. So I think that was the reasoning as to why I left the B+ unfused. However, if I should have a fuse on this, please let me know.
Unlike the amplifier I have replaced ALL the resisters along with the caps in the tormat section of the power supply, and the read out circuit. Again, with my memory coming back to me, I did this because I kept reading how touchy the tormat circuit was and I mostly used close tolerance metal film resistors this area. It could be the reason why everything worked first try with the tormat. So I would say that outside of fusing that other leg of the 30v supply and perhaps putting a fuse on the B+, I believe my work on the tormat section of the TSU is done. But I know I still have to go through the stepper to make sure it is in adjustment.
It is a shame that the forum isn't allowing me to post pictures as I did want to show everyone of my findings.
So I have to go through my electronic supplies and see if I can dig up another fuse jack and properly fuse the other leg of the 30v line before putting the TSU and SHFA back into the jukebox. Another thing I have to find is my feeler gauge as I want to go through the contacts to make sure the spacing is all fine. I believe it will be as the mech always had the cover on it.
Once that is done, then I just have to re-lubricate the mech and just bring up the whole machine on a variac.
So that is it for now.
Geo
|
|
