Rockola 433 multiple issues

[oldrockandroller]

Hi there. I'm a 'newbie' here. I've got Rockola 433 that's been in storage for quite a while. I bought it back in the 90's. Back then it was working reasonably well but had a couple quirks. I moved & it sat in the cellar of my new house for many years unused. Finally last year after remarrying I had it moved to where I'm living now and have been trying to get it up & running. Did some cleaning up on it. Then I had a jukebox repair service come to my house to work on it (big repair bill) & he got it working about half way. Meaning, it would only play selections using the first 2 banks of selector buttons. The 3rd bank of letters did not function. He thought it might be an issue with the wiring harness underneath. So I could load it half full of records & it would work fairly well.  I recently was fortunate to get a complete button assembly from a guy in CA who was parting out a 433 & selling on eBay. I installed it myself, just a matter of several connectors, tho it was a bear to mount on the machine. I did clean it with Detoxit before installing it. It works but I'm having an issue with the relay that starts the record selection process. If I trip it manually the light flashes & it selects a record & plays it but not the one that was punched in. The 3rd bank of buttons do seem to work now but, again, not the record selected. And usually it's a record that was played previously, regardless of the letter/number punched in. Any help figuring out whats causing these issues would be appreciated.

[Ron Rich]

Hi Old rocker,
I would never "clean it" (a keyboard) with Deoxit ! See the FAQ's post on checking switches. What "relay" that starts, what action ? Please read the Hi Newbies post in our FAQ's section and use the terms in the Service Manual, so we don't give you wrong info ! Ron Rich

[jukenorman]

Just to add, there is also a fair bit of relevant info that might help you in previous posts. From the information you've provided, it looks like you are manually operating the stop relay. What you need to first concentrate on is whether the write-in relay is coming in (and write-in motor runs) when you make a selection.

Norman.

[oldrockandroller]

Hi Ron & Norman. Thanks for your replies. I did look at the “newbie” section the forum but not in detail. I’ll look again. I’ll try to be more specific as to correct terms for various components. With limited resources I’ll do the best I can. Anyway, Norman you are correct. It is the stop relay that, when pressed manually, starts the record selection process. So you’re saying that the write-in relay not functioning is the reason why the stop relay is not working. Ok I’ll look more closely & see if I can spot a problem there. Dirty contact perhaps? And Ron, what would you recommend as a cleaner/lubricant for the button assembly? I thought Detoxit was supposed to be the “go to” for dirty contacts/switches etc. Actually the guy I hired last year to try to get this thing up & running was using WD40 on the all the moving parts under the buttons. He would spray it in & then work the buttons repeatedly. He did this for quite a while. He got all but L thru M, the third bank, working. He then decided there was a wiring problem somewhere in the harness & was going to look for a schematic. Meanwhile, I found the replacement assembly on eBay. The buttons seem to work now but, like I said, some other selection plays rather than the letter/number punched in. Thanking you guys in advance for your input.

[jukenorman]

WD40 and a big repair bill - wow! Yes, sequence is - make selection, write-in relay energises, write-in motor runs, selection position found, stop relay then energises. There are schem-a-grams in the manual taking you through the sequences step by step. You need to ignore the fact that you're getting the wrong selection, the write-in motor not running is the issue there.

Norman.

[oldrockandroller]

Thanks Norman. Yes it was a big bill! I gather by your reaction that WD40 is not recommended for that purpose. What would be preferable? Some buttons on the replacement I installed are a bit sticky. So I would want to lube them with something, right? Also I am not sure if the write in relay is being energized or not. When a selection is punched in the buttons stay depressed & nothing happens unless I manipulate the stop relay with my finger. Then the sequence starts but a record other than the one selected plays. If the write in relay is not being energized where would I look for the problem?

[jukenorman]

Hi Oldroller,
WD40, a little experiment - spray some WD40 in a small dish or similar, run your finger through and it will feel quite loose and lightly oily, so far so good! Set it aside for at least ten days, now run your finger through it and it will be really thick and sticky, that pretty much tells you all you need to know!

Briefly, the usual treatment for button banks is to wash them with a water based detergent, rinse and dry (a sunny day is good!) Vulnerable items like the latch coil should either be removed or well protected to prevent water ingress and damage.

It's fairly important to know whether the write-in relay is energising because that would determine the next step. Let's try something else, if you manually operate the write-in relay (like you do the stop relay), does anything happen? For your info, operating the stop relay doesn't start the sequence, it makes it come in part way through which is exactly why you are not getting the correct selection - you need to ignore that!

Norman.

[oldrockandroller]

Hi Norman. Thanks for the WD40 science lesson. So basically there is no lubricant that should be used on the button assembly? How then do you get them to key in all the way? I have tried activating the write in relay manually but nothing happens. Only when I activate the stop relay does anything happen. Maybe check the terminals for voltage after the buttons are pressed? What should the voltage be? If none is detected where to look for the problem? Bad contact somewhere in the selector button assembly?

[Ron Rich]

Guyz,
I have proven to me, myself and I, that no mad-der what one does to try to "protect" any type of coil from water -it is impossible-- It will sneak into the coil,show up days, or months later after it has removed all of the smoke from that unit- (See my "Smoke test" post in the "off topic section", if you wish). -As for WD 40-- it's "touted" as a "cure all", and the company is rich due to their ad campaigns-- but IMHO, it's great for what it was formulated for--nothing else-- NO place for it within 50 feet of almost anything else, including a juke box!
As for ways to check the keyboard-- see the schematic-- there should be a "loop" going thru all buttons-- use a continuity checker on the loop, check the loop goes into the correct coil when the button is pressed. What do you mean by "key in all the way" ? Some slight lubrication ( I suggest a DAB of Moly-Graph grease), should be used on sliding parts after washing,and removal of ALL the old stuff- and a DROP of 3inOne, motor oil may be used n "posts" with any type of roller on it--Ron Rich

[jukenorman]

There shouldn't be a need for lubricant on the button assy if it's clean and free. The write-in relay operates the write-in motor. Have you got 25VAC for the motor. Otherwise it's check the relay contacts - the current path is shown in the manual page 29, it also runs through a NC contact of the stop relay.

Norman.

[oldrockandroller]

Thanks guys. You’ve given me a few things to check out. As I’m going away for a couple days I won’t get a chance to try any of this till maybe Monday

[oldrockandroller]

Hi guys. Finally got a chance to try a couple things based on your advice. So, the transformer on the button assy is putting out 25v. When a selection is made I get 25v at the write in relay but it does not engage. If I push on the contact manually I hear a click but nothing happens unless I push the contact on the stop relay. Then the light flashes & the magazine turns, the gripper selects a record but not the number punched in. The rotor on the write-in side (left) does not turn. If I understand correctly, that is the side that makes the selection via the hammer coil that is activated by the relay. Apparently it is not energizing for some reason. It seems to randomly play a previously selected record. If a selection is made by tripping a selection lever manually on the write-out side (right) & the magazine is started manually it will select that record & play it. That’s where I am in the process. Any help appreciated.

[Ron Rich]

Didja find the current path-- did you test that path with a meter (power OFF), or battery powered continuity checker ? ? Didja check all relay contacts-- cleaned-- PROPERLY --? Ron Rich

[oldrockandroller]

Hi Ron. Yes checked current path with power on. When you say “cleaned properly” what do you mean? What method is recommended? I have suspected for a while that there is something amiss with the contacts in the relays. I have used CRC electronic spray contact cleaner. They are difficult to access. Please advise. Thanks.

[Ron Rich]

Please READ the "Hi Newbies" post in our FAQ's section-- then all of the "contact" posts. How/with what, did you check the current path with power ON ? Ron Rich