Wurlitzer wallbox 5225

[canadian]

Does anyone know the pulse train for this wallbox.  I am unable to find this in the manual.  Rockola has the  507 pulse train in the manual with the time for the delay between the two set of pulses.  Wurlitzer has nothing on it.  I would think they would use the same but it pulses so fast I cant count them or tell when the time delay between pulses occur.  Any info would be nice

[robnyc]

I have used both Wurlitzer and Seeburg boxes on each other's machine in commercial service. Other than having to renumber the pages, the pulse trains are similar in timing. No stepper mods were required.

Wurlitzer uses A1-A2 and Seeburg A1-B1. So we have for Seeburg a-side of first record: A1= 2 pause, 1. Same for Wurlitzer.

Each letter or number equals the same number of pulses on either brand. They are just used differently.

Both steppers are actually made by Guardian and spec'd @ 1/100th as min pulse.

What are you attempting to do?

RobNYC

[canadian]

Hi Rob
You helped new get my stepper for my rockola working. Now I am trying to do the same with the Wurlitzer. The stepper seems to work but I think the wallbox is not leaving along enough pause between the letter and the number. On the rockola you can count the pulses and hear the pause for the timing circuit to work. The Wurlitzer just puts out pulses with no noticeable pause. If A1 is 2 pulses, pause 1 pulse, the pause is not something I can tell.
If A=2, is B=3, C=4 D=5
1=1, 2=2, 3=3,4=4 5=5.
It is letter first pause the number?
That info is not stated in the manual, or at least where I could find it.
I believe in the rockola you said the first pulse is discarded. Is that what is happening with A=2 pulses.

David

[robnyc]

I thought you looked familiar :-).

"If A1 is 2 pulses, pause 1 pulse, the pause is not something I can tell." Something is probably wrong with connections between the keyboard and contacts wafer. Disconnect the box, connect your meter between the signal screw and ground terminal. Turn the contact wiper in the correct direction (no buttons pressed). You should see continuity every time the wiper hits a contact. The pause should be obvious too.

It is also possible that the transfer relay in the stepper isn't functioning. This can cause all the pulses to pile up on the letter wheel.

These boxes send letter then number. So, A should equal 2 pulses, pause, then whatever number you have pressed.

You have not mentioned what stepper and machine is involved here.

RobNYC

[canadian]

Rob
The jukebox is a 2810 and the stepper is a 259b, which a newer updated version of a 259a. I do not have a print for the stepper as is seems the stepper came out with the 3010 jukebox. Ron told me it would work but the speakers and top ten function on the wallbox would need to be modified. The 259a uses old style relays the 259b uses plug in relays. I read a previous article you wrote on testing with the meter and the contact wiper. It was bothering me about the pulse train letter first then number and the timing pause.

David

[Ron Rich]

David,
Sorry, It weren't me what spoke of that wallbox/stepper combo, in any way--I never have seen either ? Ron Rich

[canadian]

Ron
I think you forwarded something from Jim about the differences on a 259a and 259b stepper. This would have been several years ago on the old forum

[Ron Rich]

May well have--don't recall ??

[canadian]

Rob
I tested the wallbox the way you said and it tested good. I hooked the wallbox power, ground and pulse leads to the stepper and connected the stepper plug 4 to the jukebox. When I tested it I noticed the number switch was operating before the letter switch. I started checking the stepper timing circuits and found the timing relay ckt was off a bit because the resistor was 51ohm instead of 47. Adjusted the rc ckt to get the right constant. When I checked the latch relay timing ckt I found the resistor ok but the capacitor 150uf had 100uf in parallel with it. I took the 100uf out and now the first pulse is on the number switch the next pulse on the letter and the final pulse is number(A1 pushed) Some combinations of keys pushed will work sometimes and not other times. Don't know why.
Sometime doing all this key pushing I blew the 8amp 24volt ac fuse in the jukebox. Did not have that value and had to order them so jukebox is now on hold for a while.

Thanks for all the help.
David

PS Ron I found the email you sent me about the 259b stepper.  It had Jim A. on it

[robnyc]

David, if the stepper is transferring even though the wallbox is sending contiguous pulses before the interval there are several possible causes:

1) Dirty-pitted contacts on the repeater relay. This causes missed pulses which allow the transfer to take place.

2)Incorrect relay(s) in the sockets. This can be either AC-DC types mistakenly interchanged, or drastically wrong coil impedance. Determining whether AC or DC relay belongs in a given socket if you have no instructions requires that a meter be connected across the coil terminals while that relay is active.

The relay that repeats the wallbox pulses will always be DC as an AC relay would occasionally miss a pulse due to the AC zero-crossing interval. Likewise, a DC relay placed in an AC circuit will "chatter" Wrong coil impedance can make the external time constant (in this case a capacitor) too short. I suspect that is why an additional cap was added by someone.

The lightweight contacts that ride on the clappers must be in good condition and must close -as the clapper goes downward-. These are important as they apply the holding and transfer time constants. They usually cause no trouble, but in a tinkered stepper you are starting from scratch.

If at all possible, try to get a schematic or at least someone to determine the correct plugin relays.

RobNYC

[Ron Rich]

Didn't WurliTzer color the relays/sockets ? My thinking on this is , Red-AC---White-DC-and blue- I dono ! Check the original covers--I may be rong--- Ron Rich

[canadian]

Ron and Rob
The relay bases are colored code red and white for AC and DC basically idiot proof. I have new DC relays which I have tried and I know are good to no avail. The stepper uses 4 DC plugin relays and the bases are white. They are top tunes, transfer, number timing and the pulse relay. Only other external relay is the audio relay. The rest of the relays are part of the rotary switches and they seems to be working ok.

David

I have enlarge drawing of the 259b stepper.

[joshuak]

Hi

I know it has been a long time since anyone responded to this string but did anyone find the pulse train for the 5225 wallbox?

I found the below but it doesnt make sense

A1 .. 2 + 1
D3 .. 14 + 2
D5 .. 16 + 2
E7 .. 8 + 3
E9 .. 10 + 3
J10 .. 2 + 5

[jukenorman]

Hi Joshuak,
If you read through the thread RobNYC has explained how the pulse train is configured.

Norman.