Seeburg V200 runs a bit fast

[jeffinmn]

My V200 runs about a bit fast which is noticeable to me and troubling. I timed out a couple of records today and a record that is 3:15 long on my Technics quartz locked direct drive turntable is 3:11 long on the V200. It doesn't sound like much but if I'm used to hearing a song at the correct speed I don't like hearing it faster. 

The Seeburg strobe disk which has instructions printed on it, indicated the inner and outer sets of dots are to run opposite directions and the center dots are to be stationary. Though the inner and outer dots go opposite directions, the center dots go clockwise on the V200. When I play the Seeburg Strobe disk on the Technics, the center dots are stationary as expected. The manual doesn't indicate any adjustment for the turntable running too fast. 

I thought I posted this question somewhere and was told the house voltage may be too high. I checked it today with a digital VOM and it is a 120.1 volts. I connected the power cord from the jukebox to a Variac which allowed me to lower the voltage. Lowering the voltage had no effect on the speed of the record playing until the relay tripped off, presumably due to not enough voltage. 

My V200 has a Bodine motor,  a 60 cycle motor which I  understand to mean that the speed of the motor is controlled by the house current, just like old clocks and many idler (rim) drive turntables of the 60s. Voltage being somewhat high or low would have no affect on the speed of the motor. 

The Bodine motor is specified as 60 hertz, 117 volts, .38 amps and 1600 rpm. Capacitor is listed as 2.4 MFD, 1/100 HP and type KCI-42.

I'd appreciate any suggestions for fixing this problem.

Thanks,
Jeff

[robnyc]

Jeff, they do run fast on the 1600 rpm Bodine motors. I've never had anyone remark about that in my locations. If you want it somewhat slower, get the 4 wire Nidec motor. I have that in one VL, by comparison, it seems slow.

There is no adjustment.

www.ebay.com/itm/Seeburg-STD4-100-87D-Nidec-Motor-1400-RPM-1-33-HP-4-wire-motor-/142686160869 -For example.

RobNYC

[jeffinmn]

Thanks for the link to that auction. It's tempting but I'm not sure how to connect that motor up to the V200. Can you provide directions?

I wonder if 1400 RPM would equate to 45 rpm? Do you have a strobe disc that you can place in your VL200 and let me know?

I did some more comparisons tonight and found that the jukebox is running at 45.9 RPM. 0.9 RPM is 2% so it's running 2% fast. My iPhone has an app for measuring RPM. Since I can't attach it to a record playing on its edge, I put the same pressing of The Long and Winding Road, which I have two of, on the V200 and my Technics turntable. I synced up the records to the same spot and increased the speed of the Technics till the speed stayed even with the V200. I played the records again and they stayed in sync.

RPM app showed the Technics was running at 45.9 RPM.

How many RPMs is the motor spinning to get to 45.9 RPM. We know the Bodine is at 1600 RPM. Dividing 1600 by 45.9 yields 34.85. IF my thinking is correct, that should mean the for each revolution of the V200's turntable, the motor spins 34.85 RPM. What RPM would the motor have to spin at so the turntable is at 45 RPM?

I don't know if this logic is correct, but if you multiply 45 rpm x 34.85 you get 1568.25. If you multiply 1600* 2% (since the turntable is running 2% fast) you get 32.   1600 - 32 =1568. If  one were to slow the Bodine motor down by 2% that would drop the RPM to 1568. If you divide 1568 by 45 you get 34.8444 (IE 34.85) the same as the calculation. I would think 1400 rpm would be too slow. Does this logic makes sense? 

[Ron Rich]

Jeff,
(almost)All jukeboxes run a little fast--remember what they were designed to do--- ! I have never checked it, but was told when they started using the NIDEC motor, that the rated 1400 rpm was done in Japan, at 1oo vac ? BTW--all 4 wire brands of motors connect the same, and are interchangeable. The Seeburg strobe disc, was made to be used with the "native". 33 rpm units. Ron Rich

[jeffinmn]

Ron, I'm sure you are right about them being designed to run slightly fast. I had an HF100R until recently and it ran fast too. It's not bad to run a little fast, but it's bad to run slow. In the 70s we had a radio station that for a while played most of their songs (on carts) 3% fast. It drove me nuts. A friend of mine worked there.

As far as the speed of the NIDEC motor MFFE has on Ebay and the voltage in Japan, isn't the speed of an AC motor of this type tied to the line current frequency? According to Japan-Guide.com, eastern Japan is 50hz and western Japan is 60hz. The Nidec motor that MFFE has on Ebay indicates 60hz, 120 volts and 1400RPM.
Link:
vi.vipr.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemDescV4&item=142686160869&t=0&tid=29102&category=13723&seller=mffe&excSoj=1&excTrk=1&lsite=0&ittenable=false&domain=ebay.com&descgauge=1&cspheader=1&oneClk=1&secureDesc=0

The Nidec motor is 200 RPM slower, about 13% slower, than the Bodine motor in the V200. If that motor was installed in a V200, wouldn't the jukebox run much slower than with the Bodine Motor?

I have a Bodine motor for the Seeburg R that I got as a spare. I noticed that one pair of wires/coil has 110 ohms of resistance and the other has 284 ohms of resistance. I connected one of the pairs up to house current and the motor would spin at what ever direction I turned the motor shaft. I'm wondering how these motors work. They are AC motors but they can reverse direction.

The Seeburg strobe disc I have is for 45rpm. There is one on Ebay at this link.

www.ebay.com/itm/Seeburg-Jukebox-Auto-Strobe-Disc/273069242177?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D50527%26meid%3D5119f8c2200c41188905f7cec43897eb%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D142686160869%26itm%3D273069242177&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

By "native" do you mean that they normally ran at 33 and had to be adjusted to run at 45? I'm not familiar with the dual speed Seeburgs. 

Thanks for the insight you provide. I really appreciate it. 

[Ron Rich]

Jeff,
I probably have a dozen of those discs--both 33 nd 45 rpm--
There is a lengthy description of that motor's operation, written by my late friend, Tony Miller. You can find a link to his site in the FAQ's above. All Seeburgs were geared to run at 45 rpm, except the LPC, PFEA, and SS-160 models, which were geared to run a 33 rpm. All Seeburgs from the 1960 model Y's on thru the last of the STD-4 models (1978), had either an Autospeed as a standard or optional feature. As for the NIDEC speed, I have never measured it--but was tolt, that it ran at the "exact same speed" as all other brands Seeburg used--and that " speed was measured at 100 volts" ? I didn't think to question this, being a kid, at that time--- I do know these motors are not synchronous--and can be slowed down by friction--lack of proper oil-- Ron Rich

[jeffinmn]

I've looked through Tony's site but can't find anything on the motor. Can you point me in the right direction?

[Ron Rich]

Well, You know what--neither can I --10-12 years--I tend to forget what I had for lunch--sorry-guess you will need to purchase a copy of his "Console era" book--I know it's there ! Ron Rich