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Post by jakedaniel on Mar 15, 2018 20:51:28 GMT
What parts would I need for the swap? Obviously the arm, cartridge, and needles but is there anything else? If I use a later arm can I use the later magnetic trip? What else would I need for that? Would I need different tonearm springs or would my current ones work? I’ve read online that on the earlier machines the counterweight has to be ground down or the mech cover modified, would that apply to me as well or would I be able to get away without having to do that because of the different shape of my stock cover? Anyone else done this swap and have any advice?
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Post by robnyc on Mar 16, 2018 3:15:16 GMT
This first question to answer is: do you want/need to replace the whole assembly, or just the arm? 1)The post 1966 models used the 345 cart. These have two counterweights. One attached to the tail of the arm. The other is a counterpoise just to the left of the arm itself. That one comes in two styles. A cylinder about 1-1/4 long, this will clear the V-VL cover. www.flickr.com/photos/90641375@N06/35678157153/in/dateposted-public/2)The other is fatter and rounder –this will not clear any cover and must be cut or ground on one side and smaller washers added to compensate for the weight loss of the original. www.flickr.com/photos/90641375@N06/40792185532/in/dateposted-public/3)In the case of squarer later covers such as used in K thru at least 220-222 neither type will fit. Here it is necessary to change only the arm itself while retaining the original cradle. When this is to be done the tailpiece on the “new” arm is cut off and the original counterweights for the mono arm-cart are cut down to balance the new, lighter arm and cart. www.flickr.com/photos/90641375@N06/36349060431/in/dateposted-public/www.flickr.com/photos/90641375@N06/35677983773/in/dateposted-public/4)In the case of Tormat machines using a trip tube the reed switch on the new assemblies may be used w/out modification. On the older electro-mechanical type, a small relay must be added on the mech as the reed switch cannot handle the trip solenoid current. 5)The output of any of the stereo carts is substantially lower than the mono cart using original “spike” styli. This means that the AGC will often not be effective in leveling records and also, a higher position of the volume control must be used. There are several ways of dealing with this issue, which we can discuss in a separate post. RobNYC |
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Post by jakedaniel on Mar 16, 2018 12:26:53 GMT
My jukebox is a Q-160 S. It’s a stereo machine, the next years model after the 220/222. The lower portion of my mech cover isn’t visible at all, could I just trim the cover to clear the counterweight? Mine has the electromechanical trip switch to the left of the arm if you’re facing the machine from the front, if I just change the arm itself, I’d have to add a relay? Would I avoid having to do this if I change the cradle and arm? I can take pics of what I’ve got when I get home from work if I need to. I just want to make sure when I gather the parts up to do this that I have ALL the parts and I’m not stuck searching for something while the jukebox is out of commission.
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Post by Ron Rich on Mar 16, 2018 15:35:21 GMT
Jake,
My question to you is "why bother ?" The difference in frequency response will be minimal, going from a stereo set-up to another stereo set up (unless you have super hearing, or are under about 13 years old, I doubt you could tell the difference !) You would not need a relay with this change-- Ron Rich
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Post by jakedaniel on Mar 16, 2018 16:17:12 GMT
Jake, My question to you is "why bother ?" The difference in frequency response will be minimal, going from a stereo set-up to another stereo set up (unless you have super hearing, or are under about 13 years old, I doubt you could tell the difference !) You would not need a relay with this change-- Ron Rich I have super hearing, at least I think I do! Thanks for letting me know I won’t need the relay. |
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Post by Ron Rich on Mar 16, 2018 16:32:47 GMT
OK--At this point in time, I doubt you can find a good, later style tone arm ! These are prone to three failures. 1. The wiring becomes "set in it's ways", and is no longer flexible enough --especially if disturbed ! 2. The "nylon" socket's "retaining clip" tends to snap off, and 3. The socket, metal contacts, tend to spread apart loosing contact with the cartridge, intermittently. Another problem is styli. Unless you can find a pair of NOS "Seeburg" styli, you may, many not get an aftermarket pair, that is able to re-produce any better then the gray T type--- Ron Rich
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Post by robnyc on Mar 16, 2018 17:38:08 GMT
Jake, Ron pretty much summed it up here. I've long advocated upgrading to the later cart even with the work involved as it was decidedly better than the older cart. However, if you strap the input of the amp to mono most of the sonic advantage disappears.
If you are going to use this machine commercially the change would still make sense as the available styli are a lot cheaper and the lighter tracking weight will make a difference in that situation.
Cutting the mech cover does degrade the resale value of the machine -unless you either don't care about that, or get a spare cover and plan to change back.
Again, I suggest trying the mono connection w/both channels summed at the amp input before making a final decision. Stereo is no real advantage unless you have a lot of stereo records and use external speakers. Even with the later pickup the distortion with 45's is much more noticeable, which is why I've always used mono in vinyl machines. Now, with no new Pickering styli being made, things are really a roll of the dice in terms of quality.
BTW: Has the amp been serviced thoroughly? If not, that is priority and likely to yield more results.
RobNYC
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Post by Ron Rich on Mar 16, 2018 18:00:15 GMT
Rob,
He stated his phono is a Q-160 which is a "stereo", in an early post.
Jake,
The "S" on that model ID tag, stands for "single" (pricing unit)--not stereo.
Ron Rich
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Post by robnyc on Mar 17, 2018 1:15:03 GMT
Ron, I know it is stereo. My point was there is little to be gained in keeping the input stereo with speakers in the same cabinet and distortion is much lower running that cart in mono.
Rob
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Post by jeffinmn on Mar 17, 2018 4:33:41 GMT
I also question the need for this in that kind of jukebox since the speakers are so close together. What era music do you listen to? If it's 60s and early to mid 70s the mono versions of the songs are often mixed better then the stereo versions. This is especially true for bass. For example, if you have the chance to hear the mono version of Hey Jude and compare it to the stereo version I think you will be amazed at how much better and fuller sounding the mono version is.
As far as sound quality of the jukebox, I find the sound quality of the record to be probably the biggest factor. For a lot of my records I have several pressings on different labels. Sometime the original pressing sounds best and other times a reissue pressing sounds best. My jukebox, the V200, is mono and I will play stereo records on my Pioneer stereo and flip the receiver between mono and stereo to see how the record sounds in mono. Sometimes it's not good and I won't bother to put the record in the jukebox. Some records, especially in the 60s and early 70s, during the hey day of AM radio, are mixed "voice forward" and these usually sound great in the jukebox.
What kind of music do you like to listen to in your jukebox?
The modification you are considering sound risky and I think there are other ways to get really good sound from your jukebox.
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Post by jakedaniel on Mar 17, 2018 12:16:21 GMT
Rob, He stated his phono is a Q-160 which is a "stereo", in an early post. Jake, The "S" on that model ID tag, stands for "single" (pricing unit)--not stereo. Ron Rich Ron, looking at the installation manual for the machine it states on page 1 that the "S" stands for stereo. Both stereo and mono machines were offered that year. |
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Post by jakedaniel on Mar 17, 2018 12:27:21 GMT
Jake, Ron pretty much summed it up here. I've long advocated upgrading to the later cart even with the work involved as it was decidedly better than the older cart. However, if you strap the input of the amp to mono most of the sonic advantage disappears. If you are going to use this machine commercially the change would still make sense as the available styli are a lot cheaper and the lighter tracking weight will make a difference in that situation. Cutting the mech cover does degrade the resale value of the machine -unless you either don't care about that, or get a spare cover and plan to change back. Again, I suggest trying the mono connection w/both channels summed at the amp input before making a final decision. Stereo is no real advantage unless you have a lot of stereo records and use external speakers. Even with the later pickup the distortion with 45's is much more noticeable, which is why I've always used mono in vinyl machines. Now, with no new Pickering styli being made, things are really a roll of the dice in terms of quality. BTW: Has the amp been serviced thoroughly? If not, that is priority and likely to yield more results. RobNYC Mine is a stereo machine. a 1960 model Q-160 S. The S in this case stands for stereo since Seeburg offered both stereo and mono jukeboxes that year. I'm not using it commercially but I do use it daily and I do have family that come over on a weekly basis and play the jukebox for hours while playing pool over here. It gets a good amount of use. As far as resale value, I'm never going to get rid of it so I don't really care about it. I bought it for 200 bucks, (I got a really good deal), so I'm not worried about it. I could always buy another mech cover and keep that with the original parts if it was really an issue but it seems like after the 220/222 there's a huge drop in "collectability". Is there a huge demand for the Q, AY, and DS jukes now? It's an honest question, I really don't know. The amp has been rebuilt, as has the selection receiver. The crossover has been recapped, the mech serviced. It's running great. I do have a set of Seeburg external speakers that I use with the jukebox. I also have a lot of stereo records in the jukebox, more when the family comes over, (they're huge 70's-80's C&W fans and all that stuff is in stereo. I just reread your post and will try to connect it mono and see what it sounds like but my reason for wanting the arm was for lighter tracking force, easier-to-find needles, and the magnetic trip. I had heard that the sound quality was better on the later stereo cart as well. |
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Post by jakedaniel on Mar 17, 2018 12:33:05 GMT
I also question the need for this in that kind of jukebox since the speakers are so close together. What era music do you listen to? If it's 60s and early to mid 70s the mono versions of the songs are often mixed better then the stereo versions. This is especially true for bass. For example, if you have the chance to hear the mono version of Hey Jude and compare it to the stereo version I think you will be amazed at how much better and fuller sounding the mono version is. As far as sound quality of the jukebox, I find the sound quality of the record to be probably the biggest factor. For a lot of my records I have several pressings on different labels. Sometime the original pressing sounds best and other times a reissue pressing sounds best. My jukebox, the V200, is mono and I will play stereo records on my Pioneer stereo and flip the receiver between mono and stereo to see how the record sounds in mono. Sometimes it's not good and I won't bother to put the record in the jukebox. Some records, especially in the 60s and early 70s, during the hey day of AM radio, are mixed "voice forward" and these usually sound great in the jukebox. What kind of music do you like to listen to in your jukebox? The modification you are considering sound risky and I think there are other ways to get really good sound from your jukebox. I use satellite speakers with my jukebox to be able to better hear the stereo sound. The installation manual recommends it. The Q comes with 3 speakers in the cab, 2 12s and an 8 and they are very close together. But the satellite speakers really help it. I listen to all kinds of music but most of it is pre-Beatles R&R, 50's-60's R&B, 50's through early 70's C&W, plus a lot of oddball stuff I like like regional artists, Swamp Pop since I'm close to Louisiana. My wife's family however, who are over here every week, are 80s country fans. That stuff is all in stereo. Plus you are able to track lighter with the later arm, and you get to use the magnetic trip which I like. And needle availability is better than the older "T-needles" my machine uses. |
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Post by jakedaniel on Nov 3, 2018 1:45:20 GMT
I suggest trying the mono connection w/both channels summed at the amp input It's been a long time but I think I want to try this out. So how would I go about it? I thought about bridging the pins on the cart with thin strands of copper wire but maybe that would affect the tracking force weight or tonearm balance? Would I do it at the plug into the amp? Whatever I do, I'd like it to be easily reversible. I know its an old post, apologies for dredging it up. |
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Post by robnyc on Nov 3, 2018 3:55:18 GMT
Jake, just use a gator clip lead to jump pins 2&3 at the amp input.
RobNYC
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