Rock-ola 435 with spinning platter but stuck tonearm

[soulsides]

Newbie here who managed to FUBAR his way into a problem:

I wanted to remove the mechanism that switches play speed from 45 to 33. That part was easy: remove the platter and then remove one clip and one spring from the switch mechanism and voila, it's done. 

But when I was underneath the platter, I accidentally pressed down a lever that locked into place. It's the one circled in red and with the arrow pointed at the crossbar that sits across.



I didn't realize there was a problem until I put the platter back in place and then made a selection. Everything worked up until the gripper held the record in place to play but the tonearm doesn't engage, meaning that it’s in its default “rest” state and won’t swing over to try to play the record.

Meanwhile the platter is spinning and the gripper is in "play position."

I can't cancel or reset things. Hitting the cancel button or turning the power off and then back on does nothing. The platter continues to spin and the gripper arm stays in place.

It’s like the jukebox is stuck in some kind of "half-play mode."

Here's a video if it helps: www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/hsypk31ii5m8hkfbau1g4/IMG_5513.MOV?rlkey=4wlykytaqbicy69xk4k967hk0&dl=0

I feel like the solution here should be relatively simple: find some way to release that lever back to the "up" position but I can't figure out how to do that.

(Note: someone suggested hitting the circuit breaker on the power supply but my power supply doesn't have a breaker reset button anywhere)

Any suggestions on what I can do here? Thanks.


—Oliver

[jukenorman]

That's part of the speed shifter that I previously said I wasn't overly familiar with. The only thing I can suggest is to manually wind the gripper back over the carousel, there's a knurled winder on the transfer motor. I can see from your picture that the gripper arm is not fully in the play position, something must be jamming somewhere which will be why you cannot manually reject. You might also have to revisit how you've modified the speed shifter?

Norman.

[shrimpeater]

I would do what jukenorman said. (always do,lol)
I would then look for a washer or bolt or something like that ,that could have fallen off the platter assembly onto the tracking sliders.
I wouldn't think it would be that hard to take the whole assembly off. I think 3-4 screws and bolts.Take connecting arm off and then pull it out and see what you have.Or take connecting arm off and se if you can work it free.
I'm guessing there is something that fell off while you were working on it.Get a bright flashlight and look real close. It's likely something simple

[soulsides]

Oct 22, 2023 20:56:50 GMT shrimpeater said:

I would do what jukenorman said. (always do,lol)
I would then look for a washer or bolt or something like that ,that could have fallen off the platter assembly onto the tracking sliders.
I wouldn't think it would be that hard to take the whole assembly off. I think 3-4 screws and bolts.Take connecting arm off and then pull it out and see what you have.Or take connecting arm off and se if you can work it free.
I'm guessing there is something that fell off while you were working on it.Get a bright flashlight and look real close. It's likely something simple

Appreciate the reply. One thing to clarify: removing the 33/45 change switch is really easy and there's no way an extra part dropped into the machine. There's literally just two pieces: a small c-clip, which I removed, and the switch itself. There's no other moving parts that would have fallen off or needed to be removed.

[soulsides]

Oct 22, 2023 9:52:20 GMT jukenorman said:

That's part of the speed shifter that I previously said I wasn't overly familiar with. The only thing I can suggest is to manually wind the gripper back over the carousel, there's a knurled winder on the transfer motor. I can see from your picture that the gripper arm is not fully in the play position, something must be jamming somewhere which will be why you cannot manually reject. You might also have to revisit how you've modified the speed shifter?

Norman.

Norman: thanks for the suggestion. I'll see if I can wind the gripper back. 

However, best as I could tell, watching the mechanism in action, the gripper arm is fully in play position. When I selected a record to play, the gripper properly brought the record out and onto the platter but the tonearm never engaged. As I mentioned in my reply below, the problem really seems tied to whatever that lever I pushed down and locked into place is supposed to do. I'll keep trial and erroring around.  

[jukenorman]

The reason that I thought the gripper hadn't fully extended is that the spring loaded shoe looks to be fully extended in your picture. Maybe it has over travelled?

Norman.

[jukeboxmarty]

Oct 23, 2023 11:03:20 GMT jukenorman said:

The reason that I thought the gripper hadn't fully extended is that the spring loaded shoe looks to be fully extended in your picture. Maybe it has over travelled?

Norman.

Also, the tonearm is still in it's retracted position indicating the cam has not fully rotated.

[jukeboxmarty]

My guess is that the 'drive rod' and/or 'bell crank' is stalling the gripper (see the turntable assembly parts list).

[soulsides]

Hi everyone,

First of all, thanks for your patience in dealing with me. Taking into account all of your advice and then looking at the parts breakdown, I have a better sense of what I did and what may be happening:

1) I have a Rock-ola 435, not a 462 as I said before. (I've edited the post title accordingy).

2) As I did not want the player to switch from 45/33, I removed the Sensor Riveting Assembly (part #11 in the parts catalog). That also involves removing an E-clip + spring.

3) As removal, I tested the jukebox with a “small hole” 7”. Both gripper arm and tonearm mechanisms worked properly but the platter did not spin. In hindsight, I think it’s because I didn’t properly put the platter back on and it wasn't fully contacting the idler wheel but I didn't know that at the time. 

4) I cancelled play (that worked normally). I then took the platter back off and looked around decided to press down the Lifter Bracket (part #42). That’s supposed to be depressed and locked when playing a small hole 7” but it’s also supposed to spring back up after a play cycle is complete, to raise the 45 RPM Hub back up.

5) After depressing the Lifter Bracket, I placed the platter back down — properly this time, engaged with the idler wheel — and then tried to play my small hole 7” selection again.

6) And this is where things went “wrong.” The gripper brought the selection out but now, based on your feedback, I believe it stopped short of completing its proper motion. This is based on the fact that A) the record was never released onto the platter; I had to physically remove it from the gripper arm. And B) as jukenorman pointed out "the gripper arm is not fully in the play position…because the spring loaded shoe looks to be fully extended.” (Note: I don’t know which part the “shoe” is).

I previously said that the gripper had completed its motion but I believe I was wrong about that. This would explain why the tonearm doesn’t engage; if the gripper arm never completed its proper motion, then the tonearm play mode wouldn’t have been triggered.

I don’t know what I would have done to interfere with the gripper mechanism since the only things I know I did was to remove the Sensor Riveting Assembly and depress the Lifter Bracket. But it’s possible I impacted the gripper mechanism without realizing it.

So I guess the question here is: how to engage the gripper mechanism to complete its proper cycle (or cancel the cycle and return things back to default)?

jukenorman suggested I "manually wind the gripper back over the carousel, there's a knurled winder on the transfer motor". I'm not sure which part that refers to (I only have the manual and parts guide to refer to and I can't locate those part names). 

jukeboxmarty thought that maybe the drive rod and/or bell crank is interfering with the gripper.

I can locate the drive rod, it's connected to the rear of the Gripper Release Gear Assembly (#11). I know what the bell crank is supposed to look like but I believe it's underneath the assembly and I can't get a visual on it. 

Based on my limited knowledge and testing, the gripper mechanism is "locked". None of the visible gears will turn manually but I may not be testing the right parts. The only thing I can do is gently pull out the gripper arm which allows me to rotate the reversing cam a few degrees in either direction but the gripper gears are still locked. Likewise, the drive rod is also rigid since the Gripper Release Gear is also rigid. 

As of now, the idler wheel is still spinning when the jukebox is in play mode so some part of the turntable mechanism was successfully triggered even if the gripper mechanism may have stopped short of completing its proper cycle. 

I'll try to look again to see if there's a piece of debris caught in any of the gears; seems unlikely but at this point, I don't want to rule anything out. 

Open to your suggestions!

[jukenorman]

The gripper motor is item 19 on page 16 of the parts list. You can't see it in the illustration but at the bottom of the motor is a knurled knob which can be used to wind the motor manually. It would appear that the gripper mechanism hasn't completed its cycle because it has jammed somehow. These motors are quite powerful so it may be well stuck! However, normally it's possible to manually wind the motor back and return the gripper arm over the carousel - you are simply reversing it. That's what I would suggest you try first. If you can do that, you may be able to identify what's causing the jam.

Norman.

[jukeboxmarty]

Oct 24, 2023 2:54:26 GMT jukeboxmarty said:

My guess is that the 'drive rod' and/or 'bell crank' is stalling the gripper (see the turntable assembly parts list).

I still believe the rod is the issue (I was wrong once before, but that was years ago!).

In the video I think I can see the rod flexing from the tension as it becomes jammed. Please double check this.

[soulsides]

Oct 28, 2023 1:11:41 GMT jukeboxmarty said:

Oct 24, 2023 2:54:26 GMT jukeboxmarty said:

My guess is that the 'drive rod' and/or 'bell crank' is stalling the gripper (see the turntable assembly parts list).

I still believe the rod is the issue (I was wrong once before, but that was years ago!).

In the video I think I can see the rod flexing from the tension as it becomes jammed. Please double check this.

Hey Marty: you indeed are right!  

Here's a video explainer that might be a faster/easier way to understand what happened:www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/jqnmf1mv4u2ps6z6oobf6/IMG_5604.MOV?rlkey=6lchfgohi169a43633dku87c5&dl=0


I'll also break it down by photo diagram:



#1: Lifter Bracket
#2: Bottom lip of the Lifter Bracket
#3: I can't find a part name for this; it's just considered part of the "Turntable Mtg., Plate Riveting Assembly" in the Parts Manual. I'll just call it Item #3. 
#4: Drive Rod

So here's how I messed things up: by pushing #1 down, it locked into place, forcing #2 into the channel that, normally, #3 slides past towards the 2 o'clock position. 

Since #3 can't move past #2, that also prevents the Drive Rod (#4) — which is connected to #3 — from moving. That, in turn, prevents the gripper gear from completing its rotation which is why, as @jukeboxnorman initially observed, the gripper arm never completes its extension. 

So...once again, Marty and Norman helped correctly diagnosis parts of the problem here. 

It all goes back to the Lifter Bracket (#1) being locked in a "down" position. If I can release the Bracket, that should fix everything! How can I can release the Lifter Bracket? 

It makes sense that, if you're playing a small hole 7", the Lifter Bracket is supposed to be locked down during play. But presumably, after play is done, there's some mechanism that releases the Bracket, allowing it up to pop back up and therefore raise the 45 Hub back through the platter. 

[jukenorman]

I think you might have to remove the complete turntable assembly to see what's going on underneath. Does your manual have the parts section?

Norman.

[soulsides]

Oct 28, 2023 9:09:05 GMT jukenorman said:

I think you might have to remove the complete turntable assembly to see what's going on underneath. Does your manual have the parts section?

Norman.

I do. But if I have to remove the assembly then that's definitely time to call in a repair person who knows their way around the mechanisms. 

[jukeboxmarty]

I might be able to give you more guidance, but first I need to look at a Rock-Ola mechanism. Unfortunately, I won't have access to one for at least a few days. Let me know if you find a solution in the meantime, so I don't go out of my way.