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Post by jeffinmn on Apr 9, 2018 4:39:25 GMT
I may have found the answer to the C2 removal question. I was going through some old copies of Always Jukin' magazine from 2001. This was about a year after I got my V200. In the Dr. Know It All column someone asked about a popping noise that occurs when the mech changes direction. The answer was to remove the capacitor on the motor board which was recommended by Seeburg in 1957 in a tech bulletin. Is this the reason you said to removed C2?
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Post by Ron Rich on Apr 9, 2018 14:56:22 GMT
No--Not really, I don't care about a little, "popping noise"--I do care about a BIG "popping noise" where that cap shorts out and blows a hole thru the mech cover ( and I have seen one, that blew a hole in the lid glass !). If you read that bulletin, my memory says that the cap is of "no consequence" in stopping the "popping"---. Ron Rich
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Post by jeffinmn on Apr 10, 2018 2:30:39 GMT
It's amazing what one can forget after enough years. I have a stack of old Always Jukin' magazines from 2001-2002. I went through many of them last night. I got an HR-R100 sometime in early 2000 and bought the V200 in December 2000. The R100 had been recapped when I got it and worked well. The V200 was original and so I recapped the amp and selection receiver. I had a good bit of correspondence with Dr. Know It All about a speed issue in the R100. Ron, you participated in some of these providing additional information. In the case of the speed problem in the R100, replacing the motor capacitor solved the problem that time.
As you know, we've been discussing a speed problem in my V200. I figured I'd check the capacitance of the motor cap in it just in case it was off. I disconnected the negative wire from the motor cap today to check it and found that it is 1.0 on one section and 1.5 in the other section when the mech is positioned to play a record. When the mech is in scan mode the combined capacitance read at 2.6 MFD. Power was off, of course.
The Bodine motor in my V200 runs at 46.8RPM which is 4% fast, too fast for me. I also have a Westinghouse motor that was in the R100 at one time. I replaced it in the R100 with a Bodine motor to see if that would fix the speed problem. In one of the Dr. Know It All columns someone asked about how the motors worked and solved a speed problem by installing a Westinghouse motor after removing a Bodine motor. Since the Capacitor tested good, I installed the Westinghouse motor in the V200 today and it runs at 45.7 RPM which is 1.6% fast. That's much better and not really noticeable to me. I will probably try the Nidec motor when it comes just to see how they compare.
I measured the resistance of the coils in both motors and labeled the wires carefully on the Bodine motor as I disconnected each lead on the V200 motor terminal strip (which is really a square). I connected the Westinghouse motor the same way the Bodine motor was connected. There was a slight difference in resistance between the two motors. On the Bodine motor, the coil connected to motor terminal strip (E2),left side, Upper and Lower terminals, is 98 ohms. The coil connected to the Upper and Lower Right terminals is 258 ohms.
On the Westinghouse motor the coil connected to the motor terminal strip left side, Upper and Lower terminals is 110 ohms, the coil connected to the right side upper and lower terminals is 283 ohms.
Any idea what would cause a 2% difference is speed between these two motors?
I noticed that the Westinghouse motor coasts longer after shutting off. It stops at M0 where as the Bodine motor stopped at R0. The Bodine motor also vibrated more when scanning. The Westinghouse motor doesn't vibrate while scanning.
I'm wondering how much oil to put into these motors. The Westinghouse motor hadn't been used since 2001 I put a lot of oil into the oil cups and spun the motor by hand and the oil went down. I kept adding oil and it kept going into the motor. I stopped after a few minutes of doing this. How do I know if the motor has enough oil. Can there be too much oil put in?
Lastly I did remove C2 from the mechanism.
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Post by Ron Rich on Apr 10, 2018 2:41:56 GMT
Hi Jeff, No idea at all, but stopping at "M0" by both motors is interesting ( that's what you writ !!-  ) Ron Rich |
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Post by jeffinmn on Apr 10, 2018 3:02:06 GMT
I corrected my typo, The Bodine stopped at R0, the Westinghouse stops at M0. Any thoughts on how much oil to put in the motor?
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Post by Ron Rich on Apr 10, 2018 3:08:26 GMT
No explanation there? Fill oil cups, play it, re-fill cups, large oil wicks must fill up before motor gets oil ! Ron Rich
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Post by jeffinmn on Apr 17, 2018 0:47:03 GMT
I wanted to update this thread. I installed a new .1 mfd cap at 1000v volts because without the cap there was a loud pop when the mech changed directions. The Nidec motor arrived today. I installed it so I could see how it compared to the Westinghouse motor and the Nidec runs at 45.4 RPM which is excellent. The problem is when the mech scans from left to right there is a lot of vibration noise but when the mech scans right to left there is no vibration. The rubber disk that the motor sits on is new and soft. The rubber link between the motor shaft and the mech is new and soft also. The rubber disks that go around the top and bottom of the motor are soft and flexible. I don't know why it vibrates in one direction only. It is fine when playing records. The link below is to a short Youtube video so you can see and hear the situation. I used alligator clips to connect the wiring because I may not keep this motor installed if it continues to vibrate. Any suggestions for how to eliminate the vibration? youtu.be/YicH_M1SzF8 |
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Post by Ron Rich on Apr 17, 2018 2:44:09 GMT
Jeff,
ADJUST the REVERSING switch CORRECTLY !
Remove C-2 !
Install the motor coupler correctly, as per my Seeburg Mechanism Guide. OIL that NIDEC, and all of the drive train--properly, with the proper oil ! Ron Rich
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Post by jeffinmn on Apr 17, 2018 3:09:59 GMT
I'll remove C-2 and hope this motor won't cause the loud popping sound. I'll check the manual for how to adjust the reversing switch, I think I saw that in the manual. I've oiled the NIDEC so that the oil stays in the oil tubes. It initially kept going down into the motor. Is there any other place I should oil on the motor? I have the Seeburg Oil which you've told me is the correct oil, the same as SAE 20. I've put that oil on the gears of the drive train but if there is a better way of doing that I'll need instructions. I'd be happy to buy your Seeburg Mechanism Guide, just let me know how to do that. Can I get it from you directly? I installed the motor coupler the same way it's always been with the allen screws on each side screwed in against the flat part of the motor spindle.
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Post by robnyc on Apr 17, 2018 4:25:08 GMT
As the saying goes “if it ain’t one thing, its another”.
On popping noise, none of the 8 remaining Seeburgs I have on location make a noise through the sound system when reversing and none have that cap across the motor terminals.
As the mach scans touch the styli and see if any noise comes through. The system should be totally muted in all but play mode. A slight ‘tick” at the reversing points is normal due to leakage paths into the AC line and through the power output stage, but no loud pop or thump.
Check for excessive sparking at the reversing switch.
Mech vibration, Ron outlined the basics. In addition, when I hear that sound it is most often due to chattering glides on the pop meter or annunciator assembly. Old gummy oil is to blame there.
Another factor can be a clutch that has also become gummed up with stale and dirty oil- the same is true of the tall bearing above the motor –though that one will usually squeal loudly.
Check both the vertical mech rollers (three of them as well as the azimuth rollers underneath. The mech wants to shift (and does slightly) depending on scan direction. Rollers under the mech work to limit that shift by bearing against the inner side of the gear rack.. If bone dry they can cause noise.
The last point is that these are old machines and they do develop noises that resonate with the normal vibrations of the motor. In scan mode the added capacitance to boost torque causes the motor to slip-cycle a bit and thus vibrate a lot more. The mech covers on several of my machines do vibrate in scan. If I can’t literally put my finger on the source of the noise and have checked the above suggestions, I simply don’t worry about it.
RobNYC
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Post by Ron Rich on Apr 17, 2018 13:04:57 GMT
If popping with out the cap, but not popping with it, the reversing switch is NOT correctly "adjusted" ! ALL 6 blades on that switch MUST be open at the same time !! Switch contacts must be free of "pits/burrs". Check ALL "ground" points between mech and amp. Ron Rich
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Post by jeffinmn on Apr 17, 2018 14:30:14 GMT
I'll work more on the reversing switch and check the grounds. I cleaned all 4 sets of contacts using contact cleaner on card stock and rubbing the card back and forth. A lot of black stuff came off. I especially worked on G, J, H and K. The contacts look good but there are still small sparks when switching. There is no sound while scanning from touching the stylus, it is completely muted. I lubricated the glides for the pop meter, they were dry. I don't know what the annunciator assembly is, please describe what and where this is.
I removed the motor coupler and reinstalled the motor and the mech vibrated just sitting there. I reinstalled the motor coupler making sure that the top screws are between the area they should be in on the top part and the screws connect to the flat parts of the motor shaft. I'm at a loss as to what to try next. As far as the Nidec motor, the mech did not vibrate when the Westinghouse motor was in use. If I can't eliminate the vibration I'll have to put the Westinghouse motor back in. The Nidec motor runs closer to 45 and I prefer that, but not at the expense of having the vibration.
Do either of you have any other suggestions?
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Post by Ron Rich on Apr 17, 2018 16:40:14 GMT
Correct adjustment of that switch requires more be done. First off, go to the FAQ's section, of this forum, and read "contact cleaning info" After contacts are clean ( that "black stuff", unless totally caked between the contacts, makes no difference !) Then after cleaning check that the external (Up--side-down) "V" supports are stopping the switch travel evenly, and as minimally, as possible. After that, support the thin fiber CAREFULLY (!), with one hand, and slowly "flip" the paddle, with your other hand--watching the contacts--in both directions--ALL motor contacts MUST be open at the same time. Ron Rich
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Post by jeffinmn on Apr 17, 2018 16:53:57 GMT
So this morning the vibration was much less and actually gone for a while. Perhaps it is due to the oil working into the new motor. I soldered the wires to the motor board and put it all together. I'll see how it goes.
Thanks for the direction to the FAQ on cleaning contacts. I'll work on that later today.
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