Seeburg V200 Transfer Arm 2 Adjustment

[jeffinmn]

I've started having a problem with some records not being clamped properly onto the turntable. The clamp arm doesn't go into the hole of the record.  I've noticed that this happens when records are slightly undersized. For example I've had the record Seasons in the Sun by Terry Jacks on Bell records in the jukebox for several years. Recently it just would not clamp properly. It wasn't coming up  high enough but that was the only record having that problem. I stacked that record on another 45 and noticed that it was slightly smaller than the other 45. I removed that record from the jukebox. A few weeks have gone by and now I've had this start happening with a few other records just occasionally. I've checked the Pivot Pin Alignment and the Centering Pin Position and don't believe that is the problem. In fact years ago I installed a record clamp that can play small hole 45s which has worked well for both small hole and large hole 45s. 

I see on page 2316 in the manual how to adjust the transfer arm Play Position Clearance on page 2316. It looks like one would have to take the mechanism out of the cabinet and remove the left side cover in order to perform the adjustment. I'm wondering if there is a way to make this adjustment without removing the mech. 

I see the instructions for how to removed the mech. I'm wondering about how heavy the mechanism is? I have a spare amp and selection receiver so I could connect the mech to these for testing. I would think I could plug in a wall box into the selection receiver so I could make selections after the adjustment is made to make sure it works properly. I'd appreciate any comments of suggestions on this. 

Thanks,
Jeff

[Ron Rich]

Hi Jeff,
I would bet that this is NOT your problem here ! This "adjustment", like 99% of the "adjustments",on a Seeburg, once correct, it will not change ! Did you measure the size of the record as stated on that page--is it within that range ? If so, does it have problems with either, one, or both sides ? This adjustment can be done with-out mechanism removal, from the phono ( don't know the weight--but they have gained weight recently, and I can no longer handle them by myself !), just play a selection way down on the V-0 end of the rack, and reach around with a wrench--
Ron Rich

[jeffinmn]

I agree with you that it should not need adjusting. I've had this Jukebox for 18 years and that particular record has been in the jukebox for most of the years I've had it. It is slightly smaller than others but it's worked perfectly till recently. I've had a few other records occasionally not clamp. This record though, I could see it not clamp and that the clamp would circle around the record for a couple of seconds until it would get into the hole and clamp. I welcome suggestions for how to resolve this problem.

[Ron Rich]

OK--One of three things should solve it--
1. Using the correct oil--Oil both the lift/transfer arm pivots
2. " " " "-- oil the segment gear pivots
3. Check/lube the turntable shaft thrust bearing--flip spring steel plate over/change ball bearing(.187), if needed.
4 "adjust" record ramp up higher--SLIGHTLY !!

[robnyc]

This is one of those problems that can have some oddball causes.

First one is clutch member. I've had this happen on two 201's on location. In both cases I found a worn clutch was hopping out of the upper (transfer) notch) during the clamping phase. This is where the cam is paying back positive force to the cam lobe and it seems to be able to pop it out of the notch and just sit there and spin and scribe the record. I tried to "adjust around it" to no avail, Only a rebuilt clutch assembly fixed it. In keeping with this area, make sure the clutch shifting yoke itself is freely moving and not the shaft is pivots on.

The other possible cause is a slightly bent down ramp. In that case I suspected that someone may have ever-so-slightly bent the ramp down to clear an oversize disk. This is a simple fix. I also had an instance where an L phono would let the record slip down between the ramp and stripper bracket. I -very- slightly bent the ramp toward the flywheel. The angle change here is barely noticeable with casual observation, but it also solved this occasional problem on the K I have in service. Seeburg should have made the ramp more of a channel to prevent this sort of thing.

RobNYC

[jeffinmn]

Thanks to both of you for your suggestions. I'll work on them this week. By record ramp, is that the part that rolls the record out and lifts it to the clamp and turntable? Is the record ramp the same as the Transfer Arm?

[robnyc]

Jeff, the ramp is what the record rolls up on as it is pushed by the transfer arm. Regarding the ramp, in play mode a record should only be 1/8th of an inch above it -at most when clamped.

RobNYC

[jeffinmn]

I bent the ramp up slightly and then it rubbed on some of the records that weren't exactly centered or were just a hair bigger than they should be so I bent it back. I made sure that on records that were a bit off center or big that the ramp just barely cleared the record. I may just not be able to play that record any more, it's good eighth of an inch small. I'll explore the other suggestions here.

As far as the Seasons In The Sun record, I have two of them, one on Bell records from when the song was first released, and one on Arista Records, a reissue on their Flashback label. They are both the same size,  about a eighth of an inch smaller than they should be. The reissue record would have come out some years after the original issue yet they have the same size problem. 

[robnyc]

Jeff, at this point if you've checked for the clutch popping out, I'd also check-fine tune the alignment of the clamp and its pilot with regard to the flywheel. I have noticed that the later clamps designed for 33-45 are a bit more critical in that regard.

Select a slot with no record, when the machine detents, turn off power. Take it through the rest of the loading and clamping manually by using a finger to turn the motor coupling. Watch how accurately the pilot which is also the 33 spindle indexes the hole in the flywheel. There is a fair amount of adjustment possible here. Unless the lift arm adjustment has been tampered with I'd say it is unlikely to help. I've never had to adjust that part, loading problems have always been bent ramp, misaligned pilot or clutch. Going through a manual loading this time with a record can be of some interest as well.

RobNYC

[Ron Rich]

Jeff,
Did you check the above three things, I posted above, first, before bending that ramp ? If you have had the phono that long, and had no problems, I still strongly suspect "lubrication problems" ! By any chance--did someone "grease" the segment gear/transfer arm gears where they mate ? If so, was "Lubriplate" used--or something else that has turned to glue ? Ron Rich

[jeffinmn]

Ron, yes, Last week I took off the side mech cover and fake record plastic piece and lubricated the entire clutch area with Seeburg Special Purpose Oil Part #53025. I also used actual Lubriplate on the clutch worm and transfer arm segment gear and transfer arm pinion. I repair Technics turntables as a side hobby business and Lubriplate is used on most of these after cleaning out the old dried out lube. I checked the turntable shaft thrust bearing and put oil there too. I also oiled the other bearings. I oiled the sided of the transfer arm. I did this before bending the ramp. Since the problem only occurs with certain records, I think the problem is the records being undersized. I just don't understand why these played fine for years.

Rob, I have not tampered with the lift arm adjustment and won't do anything with it at all. I've previously checked the alignment of the clamp which, as you say is more critical with the clamp that can clamp small hole 45s. It works fine and clamps the small hole 45s perfectly. I just won't be able to play the undersized records which is not that big of a deal.

I want to thank both of you for taking the time to provide these repair suggestions.

[Ron Rich]

Jeff,
Did you oil the segment gear shaft ?
IMHO, and the opinion of "Seeburg Engineering", in the 50's and beyond, "Lubriplate" is NOT suitable to be anywhere near a Seeburg Select O Matic mechanism. If you have a copy of my Seeburg Mechanism Guide, you would have known that --. Ron Rich

[jeffinmn]

I put Lubripate number 105 on the worm gear and the transfer arm gear but only Seeburg oil on the pivot points. I'd like to get your books, are they sold at Victory Glass or by Always Jukin'? Please let me know how I can buy your books.

Thanks,
Jeff