Seeburg 222 only selects number 8 selections

[smailskid]

I have a 222 that is new to me and I am a relative newbie.  It works but makes improper selections.  It recognizes letter selections correctly but only will play from the "8" selection no matter what number is selected.   So for example A1 is selected and A8 (only) is played.   It does this every time with every number/letter combination. Otherwise it operates as it should.

I have a manual and have/am reading on the Tormat theory of operation.  The the selection receiver is original and needs to be recapped.

Ideally I would like to troubleshoot this problem prior to recapping the selection receiver unless out of spec resistor/caps are contributing to the problem.  (I like to solve problems first before potentially creating new ones....)

I have yet to perform the battery test which I will do this week.

So my question is ...do you recommend recapping right from the start?  If not... any ideas on what to investigate first to solve?  

[e093116]

For starters, I'd carefully inspect the switches behind the number keys on the keyboard.  There should be a diagram in the manual to refer to.  I think the switches are all wired together with a common ground, and you might have something as simple as a broken wire.  If you stare at the switch assembly long enough, you can figure it out.  I like to put a meter on the switch bank and check continuity of each switch.  While you are there, you might as well check every switch on the keyboard and the switches on the keyboard assembly that are actuated by the latch bars/levers!  And then you might as well clean/service the latch bars/moving parts too! 

You might also check the jones connectors at the selection receiver to make sure the contacts are not corroded or oxidized.  Try to check both sides or across the installed connectors so you can determine if you have a high resistance in any of the individual contacts.

The selection receiver should be easy to recap, there are only a few caps to change.  Pay close attention when you get into the pulse amp.  Also check for any out of spec resistors.  I usually replace any resistor larger than 1 meg, whether they measure bad or not.

Everybody has their own process, but you run the risk of burning up costly transformers if you don't recap up front.  I know some people like to "get it working" before teardown, but I've found what works best for me is to do a complete disassembly, thoroughly clean/degrease, service each part, and then put it back together.  It's much more enjoyable to work on something that is clean, rather than working on something and feel like you need to take a decontamination shower afterwards...

Good luck with your project, you'll figure it out.

PS - if your name is Spaulding can you say hi to Judge Smails for me?

[smailskid]

Thanks for the reply Bill. Is there an easy way to access the switch assembly without removing it from the machine? I have removed the black cover but it is a little tight to work on in the juke.   Does the switch assembly and associated hardware come out easily?

I will check on the things you mentioned. I feel like this is a write in problem but I will confirm with the battery test.

You mentioned paying close attention in the pulse amp...care to elaborate?

....Smailskid is absolutely a Caddyshack reference!......

[smailskid]

Update-

First I did the battery trick and it played every selection, as it should, basically confirming I have a write it problem.

I have a manual and troubleshooting guide from Victory Glass. I followed the troubleshooting guide, specifically the tests G-L which focus on the write in process. In test L it states that after removing the electrical selector plug, jumping "D" to "S", "K" to "M" and pressing timing Relay 1 the mech should scan to V8 and play it, which it did. The manual then states to "replace electrical selector- (short to ground)"

So a short in the electrical selector.

I pulled the electrical selector assembly and did a thorough visual inspection. All good. I did a continuity test of all switches all the way through the plug confirming that the switches and wiring were intact. I checked all switches for a short to ground through the plug as well. All tested good. The male and female ends of the plug are in good repair and not corroded. The switches associated with latch bar assembly all appear to function properly. In short I could find no fault on the electrical selector switchbank.

I did plug it back into the juke and started checking continuity across the switches again. Now I had no continuity across the letter switches unless they were depressed/actuated (as it should be).....however I DO have continuity across the number switches WITHOUT the switches being depressed. This can't be right. So I began by unplugging the plug the service switch plug--no change--, then the pricing unit plug---no change-- then the 33 pin plug J552 to confirm. Yes when the 33 pin plug is unplugged-- no continuity between switches. When it is plugged in...there is continuity across the number switches (only)...without the switch actually being activated.  

So the next thing I did was reconnect everything, but only unplug the "To Tormat Memory" plug (J551).

Retest.....now I DO NOT have continuity across the number switches when they are not activated.

Does this suggest a short in the Tormat circuit?

[e093116]

You are on the right track for sure.

I'd pay less attention to the troubleshooting guide and study the schematics for the items of interest and try to figure out where the short is coming from.

Does your selection receiver have a stepper on it?  That might be another area to study.

Bottom line is that it appears you have a gross short somewhere that should be relatively easy to find.

Look at the back of the jones plugs on the selection receiver and see if there is a jumper wire or something stupid that shouldn't be there.  Compare against the schematic.  Most of the time if you look carefully you can tell "hack work" from "factory work" and that should help guide you.  If you have a stepper look carefully at how the wiring is arranged on the number and letter stepper square shaped "circuit boards" and if the rotating contacts for the stepper are at the "home" position.

It's least likely there is a problem inside the tormat.  Look at it and see if someone's been in there before.  You might want to take the backshell off the tormat jones connector and see what is going on inside.  I'd do that before I took apart the tormat itself.  First thing I would do is see if the short is present on the tormat jones connector with it unplugged from the selection receiver, and proceed from there.

You might also look at the contacts themselves for the number switches on the electrical selector.  I've had a couple different issues where the switch contacts themselves were broken and causing shorts or opens which in turn caused "selection" issues.

Keep picking at it, I think you're very close to figuring it out.

[smailskid]

Thanks for the reply. I do have a stepper unit. I looked at that and the component side of the selection receiver last night. Upon initial exam nothing appeared “incorrect”. Enough so that wanted to look elsewhere first.

I tested The J551 plug to the Tormat and found that pins 21-31 have continuity. This does definitely not seem correct when considering the operation of the Tormat and when looking at the schematic. I removed the housing from the plug as you suggested. All looks good and proper at the plug.

So now I am starting to suspect the Tormat itself. I can see that it has been opened before as the stickers are broken.

I think I have to look in there and check whats going on.

[jukeboxmarty]

May 21, 2024 23:48:14 GMT smailskid said:

I tested The J551 plug to the Tormat and found that pins 21-31 have continuity.

Those pins should show continuity. Check the schematic again.

Tormats are seldomly faulty internally. I've only seen 2 failures in the hundreds of Tormats I've worked with. One had a cracked torrid, and the other had a bad solder connection.

I'd look elsewhere.

[smailskid]

Thanks for the input….Yes. I checked the schematic again and IIsee the connection I missed.

Question —. Could out of spec caps cause this issue?

Or is this more likely to be the short to ground that I have been looking for?

In other words, should I recap and hope that it fixes it (if thats possible?). Or do I continue to look for the short?

I prefer to get it working first before a recap so if there is an issue afterwards I know it was me and I know where to look……

[jukeboxmarty]

Are you absolutely sure that the 'number' stepper relay is fully in it's return position and not stuck?

[smailskid]

Initially I did check that and I operated it by hand using the relays to see that it was moving freely. I will check it again to confirm

[smailskid]

The number steeper moves freely and is not stuck. I did operate the timing relays and number/letter stepper relays by hand a number of times to see they operated freely/correctly. Somewhat interestingly, I did try A1 selection and it did select and play it (a first). It then played A8 afterwards. I could repeat this a few times ….then after a while it would just play A8 when A1 was selected ( which is the typical problem). I only relay this as information…I am not sure what it exactly points to as the potential problem.

Frankly I need to understand the theory/order of operation better of how the stepper and associated relays are involved. Specifically WHEN does relay 1 and 2 fire. Is the number stepper and letter stepper necessary in making a selection when not using a wall box.? It appears a electrical pulse is can be/is directly transmitted from J552 to J551 without involving the stepper. However I could be incorrect as I am not a expert at understanding schematics. This is the schematic of the area we are discussing.

[smailskid]

I found info on the stepper and related coil functions in the back of the service manual which was helpful.



Observing the stepper when a selection is made I noticed that none of the relays operate. Only on the credit unit.

Suggestions where to start? Check voltage out of 2050 (pin3?) If so what should it be (i dont see a value on the schematic)

I found this detailed schematic of the stepper unit





Currently I have the Amp removed as it is my understanding that it is not needed for this troubleshooting work (it has not been recapped yet)

[jukeboxmarty]

-> Yes, the selection system will work without the amp.

-> None of the stepper relays should operate when making a keyboard selection.

At this point, I would just go ahead and cap the selection receiver. I've seen bad selection receivers cause lots of erroneous selection issues. The keyboard should not be overlooked either. Bad keyboard contacts can also cause erroneous selections.

Make sure you check the selection receiver for out of tolerance resistors. You may need to remove them from the circuit to get an accurate reading.

[smailskid]

Ok. I will recap the receiver for now then. I will report back what Infind after that is done. Thanks for the advice