Post by Ron Rich on Jun 4, 2018 22:14:47 GMT
Note--copied from the old PhonoLand--
ERRORS known in printed material
This does not necessarily pertain to "copies"/re-prints, of factory service manuals, which are "prone" to "all kinds" of errors !
by Ron Rich » Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:31 pm
Hi All,
"Errors" in printed material are a real PIA, so I decided to start this subject, and point out all I can recall at the moment--please feel free to add anything you discover to it ( just click on "edit" and you should be able to add "stuff")--please, be 100% sure that you are correct, and do it by brand name--
Hi All,
"Errors" in printed material are a real PIA, so I decided to start this subject, and point out all I can recall at the moment--please feel free to add anything you discover to it ( just click on "edit" and you should be able to add "stuff")--please, be 100% sure that you are correct, and do it by brand name--
My Guides:
-- "The Seeburg MicroLog Trouble Shooting Guide" contains too many to list here, and should have come with a one page "errata sheet". The last error was discovered on 9/08 and the sheet is dated such at the bottom of the last paragraph. If you need a copy, email me at: ronnnrich@yahoo.com (Note: NLA--computer died--please email me, if you have this copy, you can send me ! ronnnrich@yahoo.com)
"The Seeburg MicroLog Digital Trouble Shooting Guide--2nd edition": No errors known --yet--However one (maybe), "omission". In the overview on page 4, I stated that the 2VAC supplied by the DCC was used to power the pop meter, among other things--true--but during the USC-2 run, that was modified on the mechanism, splitting the Pop meter and selection now playing lamp circuits, and adding diodes to the pop meter coil, ONLY. The selection now playing lamps were left un-fused. This is NOT documented in the USC-2 manual. nor some of the later manuals- My thinking is that this is noted somewhere in one of the guides, but I can't find it now ? IF there is ever a reprint, it will be noted--
-- "The Seeburg MicroLog Trouble Shooting Guide" contains too many to list here, and should have come with a one page "errata sheet". The last error was discovered on 9/08 and the sheet is dated such at the bottom of the last paragraph. If you need a copy, email me at: ronnnrich@yahoo.com (Note: NLA--computer died--please email me, if you have this copy, you can send me ! ronnnrich@yahoo.com)
"The Seeburg MicroLog Digital Trouble Shooting Guide--2nd edition": No errors known --yet--However one (maybe), "omission". In the overview on page 4, I stated that the 2VAC supplied by the DCC was used to power the pop meter, among other things--true--but during the USC-2 run, that was modified on the mechanism, splitting the Pop meter and selection now playing lamp circuits, and adding diodes to the pop meter coil, ONLY. The selection now playing lamps were left un-fused. This is NOT documented in the USC-2 manual. nor some of the later manuals- My thinking is that this is noted somewhere in one of the guides, but I can't find it now ? IF there is ever a reprint, it will be noted--
"Seeburg Mechanism Guide"- ALL printings, --corrected in V 2.3, or 4-- ! Notes P-2 and P3 Should not contain the word "Directly" Should read "interchangeable if needle pressure is correct for different pick-up's"--The 345-03x model replacement carts need to be correctly "weighted" and the spring pressure, be correct, for the "Red head".
Notes on the "safety plunger" should read-- there were two versions of this part-- part # did not change-- "fat" portion was reduced on later versions-- "Anti-magnetic bump out" was added--Newer ones will retrofit, older mechs--Older ones should not be used as a retrofit to newer phono's--
"---Seeburg Mechanism Guide", several errors--errata sheet dated 11/08--once again, email me, if you need one.(note: NLA--computer died---Please email me, if you have this copy, you can send me--ronnnrich@yahoo.com)
"---Seeburg Mechanism Guide:, 2nd edition, ( 1st printing-- "Spiro bound") Page 51-AMS info wrong. should read 33/16 rpm, P-6*, N-8/O*. Page 55--N-9 should read 253793. Page 66, third paragraph, from bottom --states "--coil in the "U" models"--should read "-- the "V" models." Same paragraph states "--units used on these models." should be "---on newer models."
2nd printing--staple bound-- no errors --yet--{ Edit-- Found one large one-- but does not distract from any subject mater--see if you can find it, yourself }
"---Seeburg Mechanism Guide:, 2nd edition, ( 1st printing-- "Spiro bound") Page 51-AMS info wrong. should read 33/16 rpm, P-6*, N-8/O*. Page 55--N-9 should read 253793. Page 66, third paragraph, from bottom --states "--coil in the "U" models"--should read "-- the "V" models." Same paragraph states "--units used on these models." should be "---on newer models."
2nd printing--staple bound-- no errors --yet--{ Edit-- Found one large one-- but does not distract from any subject mater--see if you can find it, yourself }
3rd printing --none so far--
Tony Millers books:
--- "Seeburg SHP Amp. book"( the late Tony Miller's), page 39, items g, and, h. Change the word "emitter" to collector, and the"E" to "C". Several places in the book, Tony refers to the "new bias circuit", and states it was done on the SHP-1 run--this is an error, as it was not done till the SHP-3, Code C run. As for the SHP-2, I don't know if/when it was done (Ron Rich).
--- "Seeburg SHP Amp. book"( the late Tony Miller's), page 39, items g, and, h. Change the word "emitter" to collector, and the"E" to "C". Several places in the book, Tony refers to the "new bias circuit", and states it was done on the SHP-1 run--this is an error, as it was not done till the SHP-3, Code C run. As for the SHP-2, I don't know if/when it was done (Ron Rich).
Regarding the SHP Amp Book....There is also an error in the numbering on the photo on page 42--The two chassis mounted caps
are numbered in reverse for the SHP-3--"outside" one is C-66.
(admin note): Use caution here, as some production runs used a metal anchor for the outboard cap, in which case, the numbering shown is correct. NOTE: Brown wire is neg voltage, in all cases.
are numbered in reverse for the SHP-3--"outside" one is C-66.
(admin note): Use caution here, as some production runs used a metal anchor for the outboard cap, in which case, the numbering shown is correct. NOTE: Brown wire is neg voltage, in all cases.
Tony Miller's SHP AMP Book Page 44: Preamp Board Diagram has duplicate capacitors shown. There are two C5111 and two C5128 shown. The top most C5111 (next to C5113) is actually C5114. The top most C5128 is correct. The smaller C5128 in the middle is actually C5108 a Tantulum 1uf 35v.
Page 55--309687 is listed incorrectly as 309867--also replacement is listed as MAS A06--should read MPS A06
While not an error, technically, this is somewhat of a dis-agreement-- Seeburg's amp design engineer told me to set the bias for all SHP amps with ZERO in, or, out puts connected. He also stated that using the method shown by Tony on page 41, amps using the transistorized bias should be set at 1.55. Those using the thirmistor bias, should be set at 1.65. Both settings are without a "dim bulb protector" in the circuit, and when amp is cold (room temp.). Heat sink MUST remain cold to the touch "forever" , while testing--
ROWE Ami:
All of their service manuals contain MANY errors/omissions-- way too many to doc. here ( I have the 17th printing of the WP 100 manual, which still has errors in it ) !!
One of the most glaring is in the amplifier sections of the manuals starting around the R-93, all through the CD's as far as I can tell-
Many show the biasing diode section as a single diode-some show it as a stabistor, others show it as a tri-stabistor ( 1N4157), some show it as the tri-bistor, plus a single diode (1N4148)in series,and others show a pos thirmister (Rowe # 70037004-- P-10 k, 10% ) connected between pins one (white wires) on both darlington outputs. The last version is correct --Tri, in series with the diode & thirmister.
Rowe CD manuals--many errors in early versions of each model's manual--axk re-printer which "printing" he's copied !
SEEBURG:
FUSING-- All from the LPC-1 thru the LS-2 have a fuse clip near the transformer, of the "control center" with a 15 amp FB in it. I suggest this fuse be a 10 amp, MAXIMUM fuse-- On the DCC's, it MUST BE reduced to a 7.5 MAX, value. On SMC models, I recommend a 5 amp fuse, be used.
Many schematics/parts lists show a 2 watt 56 k resistor in the read-out section-- that should be changed to a 56 k MINIMUM 4 watt resistor, per factory instructions.
Some of the 100 select service manuals showing the late style ("wedge--shovel") type needles are incorrect in the gram pressure-- 100 select mech (green/tan needles) should be set for 4 grams of pressure !
MOST, if not all Service Manuals showing the last style "read-out sensors" on the "flip-type frog", have an error in the instructions on the second page that is titled "read-out contact block 1-- Horizontal position". Instruction A states to place mech in play position--' WRONG, mech must be in scan position to do this proceedure !
Many (not all) parts catalogs have an error in the placement of the turn table bushing--see the sticky in the Seeburg section.
All "45 TASU" schematics--If shown, the ground on the control pot should have been drawn on the case side, of the pot--not the "wiper" side ! NOT shown on most schematics--Jumper should be added from pot (case), to common wires, on relay points {usually black wires}. Add two 0.1mfd/200 volts CAPS, to transistors (one each--IF NOT, ALREADY THERE !), "B" to "C", mark unit "Code C"
SEEBURG "Electra/Fleetwood" models--AKA, PFEAU-1/PFEA1-U (same model--designated differently on Service Manual vs. ID tag on cabinet), and APFEA1 model designations. These are two different models that share the same basic cabinet, and sound components-- much confusion exists The "U" model uses a "UDPU-4 pricing unit", while the "A" model uses an "APU-3 pricing unit". Depending how it's "set=up", the APU can sub for the UDPU-- not vice versa ! The APEA1 requires a SCC-4, while the PFEAU-1, can use either a 3 or the -4.
SEEBURG: "PFEA" parts manuals may have the incorrect clutch shown-- APFEA1 ("Fleetwood"), uses the same clutch assembly as the LPC models--PFEAU-1 ("Electra"), Uses the same assembly as the SS-160 model. Also, APFEA1 manual cover art work is wrong on some manuals--the "discotheque" sign was NOT used in the APFEA1 model !
PFEA, SS160, and maybe LS books (?--Have not checked, as they are not easily reached at the moment), show a "5 amp pig tail" fuse in the "fuses section" on one of the first pages- Not true ! There are TWO, 5 amp fuses, located on the read-out "frog" on the mechanism--These were carried over from all tube type units that used to have the ONE, on the mech. front. These were eliminated with the new style read-out contact block (aka"frog"), on the USC-1 model and the same year's 100 select, mech model.
Seeburg model SS-160 schematic(& maybe others?), does not show the 1/2 amp pigtail fuse in series with the pop meter, and selection now playing, lamps. Fuse is on the mechanism front--
SEEBURG LS-1, 2 and some 100 models. If equipped with a SCC-8 or SCC-9, the manuals state '395 vdc", should be on the write-in (or "HI") test point-- not true--150 vdc is there, BRIEFLY --only when a selection is being made !
Starting with the LS-1 manual, and for all 100-160 selection models, the Service Manual says when adjusting play position clearance of the record lift arm to move the mechanism "one position past the last separator"-- this can not be done as a blocker was place to prevent the lift arm from traveling up in that position. Just use the end space for this adjustment, if/when (very seldom-never if not "messed with" !) needed .
Seeburg LS-1 & 2 and maybe newer models show clutch to be #252602--wrong-- should be 252603. Seeburg LS-1. 2, & USC oarts catalogs show an incorrect part number
Seeburg HSC-1 Service Manual--- In The CCC, Added 40 vdc connection to pin 13 on the mech jack. Also, 5 amp fuse added, in series, to that line. Page (2-2) 53, "2M4" contact adjustments. 1/64 gap in scan--closed in transfer/play ( NOTE: this is for code "A" mechs only). Code "B"mechs, Open 1/16th (.040) minimum, in scan--closed in play and transfer (holds RR while playing second side) Page (2-2) 72, left out of the early manuals--needed for "U" or "Code B"--all models, including the AP's. See Service Manual SUPPLEMENT, for correct updated schematics. HSC manuals show the read out as having two sensors ("Kidney springs") -- only one is used on HSC's. AMS, and Seeburg 6000 models, do require, two sensors.
Seeburg "6000" series Home Stereo's ---Supplement manual needed for both, early, and late versions--many schematic errors in early manual--
Seeburg "6000" series Home Stereo's ---Supplement manual needed for both, early, and late versions--many schematic errors in early manual--
Seeburg LS-3 Service Manuals-- MANY errors-- suggest a USC-1 manual be used instead--
Seeburg LS-3 PARTS list-- The front upper casting holding the selection now playing and the control lamps, was cast twice. also the "white nylon" holding the credit and select lamps was also changed. The two castings will interchange as a unit, but parts/pieces will not do so in all cases. Quick distinguishing feature--fixture of the plastic
holding the lamps--screws,are early version--studs/nuts, washers are later version.
Seeburg LS-1, 2, and USC-1 PARTS catalogs, show the lift arm and pivot assembly arm to be the same as earlier versions-- not true-- the white Nylon "tails" (or the later all black {fatter} plastic type) NEED, to be added to the lift arm !!
Seeburg USC-1 ( and maybe more ?) manuals--Clutch reset lever switch, 2M1 contacts--states "closed during transfer and scan--"-- NOPE, impossible ! Open during transfer---- set for 1/64 inch open in PLAY, do not attempt to keep it closed during transfer !
Seeburg USC-1 and -2 PARTS catalogs--cash box (plastic tub). This item was changed to a smaller tub (now 498335), due to a fire at the plant that made them for Seeburg--If ordered under the original part number, a smaller tub, along with a block of wood ( to be used as the cashbox guide), a tube of contact cement, and instruction sheet was supplied--basically said to slide new cashbox to the left--insert wood on right, mark RH side of cabinet floor, and cement/screw (provided) wood in place. This happened early in the production of the USC-2.
Seeburg--ALL-- DCC schematics (except some very late ones), and some art work show wrong fuse values. The "24 VAC" fuse MUST be reduced to 7.5 at most, NOT 15 A !! Neg. 27 volt fuse should be a 6/10 A,SB if the DCC is used on a LS-3, or USC model-- all other models can use an 8/10 amp SB there. Pos. 27 volt fuse can be either 6, or 8/10 amp-
Seeburg USC-2 Service Manual SUPPLEMENT-- DCC-2 & mech trip circuit is incorrect--see DCC-3 info (in which the relay blade numbering may differ, depending on who did the re-work of the DCC-2 code A to code B). See "160 electronic parts manual", issue 3, or "Ron Rich's Seeburg MicroLog Trouble Shooting Guide", for latest changes/additions, to the 311125 PCB---See USC-1 Service Manual for clutch and reset switch info (refer to above USC-1, note)( Note: If equipped with a DCC-2 code A unit--these were ALL, (supposed to be) recalled, and should have been re-worked to a code B unit--distinguishing feature--bottom of the relay socket--if there are two diodes, it's a code A--code B, has a 150 ohm, 2 watt, resistor added ! ) (Also--MUST have, a "clutch switch" added back in -- "2m-1 contacts" on mechanism !) (MARK DCC-2 as a "Code B" ! Mark the mech as a "Code B" also ! )
Seeburg FC-2 model parts catalog fails to show the modification to the slug rejectors, that MUST be added -this is shown in the FC-1 catalog--failure to have installed this mod, can, under certain circumstances cause the lid glass to go bye-bye !!
Seeburg SMC "Tech Manual" Issue 3,--Mech schematic incorrectly drawn. Shows 1M-4 as being closed in play--should show it as open in play--note 1M-4 must open a minimum of .010, JUST as 1M-6 just makes !
SMC Tech Manual--Issue 3 -- "limit switches" (S1105/6) WIRING, - is correct--However they drew the switches in the wrong orientation. Switch 1106 is the one that is physically on your left, when looking straight at the mechanism (White/Or, wire on the inside blade),--this is the one that is best left open, as instructed, in Gen 2 kit, when using the new style Gen 2 MCU
REPRINTS of ALL, SMC manuals, are confusing, in that the re-printers all copied each other-- The same error appears in all that I have seen- In the "Electronic Parts section", they have re-printed information that pertains to the earlier MicroLog models. The ONLY thing in that section, pertaining to the SMC's, is the SHP-3, amp info.
Page 46, of the (Mechanism)"Service Manual"--Issue 3, is not correct in the adjusting sequence, of the limit switches. Follow the instructions in the Technical Manual, page 29, Issue 3 !
Page 48 of the Service Manual --the description of the 3M1 contact function is somewhat miss-leading-- This contact CONNECTS, the Detent coil to the PCC, IFB TRIAC, allowing it to fire the coil, when in scan mode-- Disconnects it quickly, as phono Detents.
SMC/100 79M parts catalog--- Detent switch part and number was changed, but old # is shown. Switch now had gold (flashed?) contacts and were of the press on, connected type, and have only two wire terminals. These can not be used in earlier units, as they will, very quickly "burn up", due to the MUCH higher current draw, and they make no provisions for use of a choke.
The following are discussion posts under the main topic:
In some of his writings, the late, Tony Miller, mentioned a "SMC,Jr."--This MAY have been a "working name" ( and does appear in other published info, and some editions of Always Jukin's "Guide"), but no phono, using this name was produced. The equivalent "100 select model", using the "MCU system", would be the "DaVinchi", and ID tagged "100-79M". The cabinet graphics other then the "control panel" are exactly the same as the prior, 100-78 D, "Celesta", model. EZ ID-- 78 has a "Red Box" in it (same for the 77), 79 uses a MCU. RR Note: at least one miss-tagged 100 79m has been found- It is designated as a 100 78D ?
NSM:
Jupiter 120C / E100 service manual - schematic power supply:
wrong: capacitor 2x 3µF/550V
correct: 2x 32 µF/550V
Rowe/AMi manuals that state either "no lubrication", or "5 year lubrication" are, IMHO, flat out wrong.
Motors, at least, on these models, need to have their "oil wicks" kept wet, with 20 wt ND oil---If you don't want to replace them--that is---Do not oil the "gripper"-- see sticky on that subject ! Ron Rich
In some of his writings, the late, Tony Miller, mentioned a "SMC,Jr."--This MAY have been a "working name" ( and does appear in other published info, and some editions of Always Jukin's "Guide"), but no phono, using this name was produced. The equivalent "100 select model", using the "MCU system", would be the "DaVinchi", and ID tagged "100-79M". The cabinet graphics other then the "control panel" are exactly the same as the prior, 100-78 D, "Celesta", model. EZ ID-- 78 has a "Red Box" in it (same for the 77), 79 uses a MCU. RR Note: at least one miss-tagged 100 79m has been found- It is designated as a 100 78D ?
NSM:
Jupiter 120C / E100 service manual - schematic power supply:
wrong: capacitor 2x 3µF/550V
correct: 2x 32 µF/550V
Rowe/AMi manuals that state either "no lubrication", or "5 year lubrication" are, IMHO, flat out wrong.
Motors, at least, on these models, need to have their "oil wicks" kept wet, with 20 wt ND oil---If you don't want to replace them--that is---Do not oil the "gripper"-- see sticky on that subject ! Ron Rich
While not "printed", there is a glaring error on the late Tony Millers web-site. The Seeburg Q model write up says the "A" is for "Album" if the optional
Autospeed is installed. Not quite correct as "Little LP albums" were not introduced till 1961, with the LPC-1 model phono. The "A", in this case, stood for "Autospeed".
I agree with Ron re the oiling of the motors.
The problem with telling anyone to oil anything is that they always go over the top, oiling will result in very clean mechanisms when cleaned up but they will need a lot of parts replacing because of the wear to the parts.
When people oil the gears on a R-84 to R-94 the oil drops onto the Sprag Wheel and rots the Stem Bushing and the oil builds up on the Magazine Gear and gives errors on the opto switch.
The first thing we do when we get a mechanism in is the remove all the lubrication and start again.
and lubricate only where needed and only slightly.
On the 1100 & 1200 mechanisms the gripper bow assembly should never be lubricated other than high melting point grease in the trunion casting pivot sockets. the nylon cam & trunion gear act as self lubrication against the cast gears. On these mechanisms one drop of oil on the idler wheel linkage at all the pivot points, oil the wicks/bottom oil tube on the turntable motor an put a film of oil on the turntable shaft using your finger, also oil the wicks on the transfer and mechanism motors.
IMHO that is the total lubrication on these mechanisms and the R-84 to R-94 need none.
Regards
Alan
Alan Hood
ami-man
UK
(EDIT--slightly dis-agree here--R84-94, in my opinion still need motor oil wicks filled, as above. Ron Rich )
Hi Alan, and all,
One thing always "puzzled me" about RoweAMi's oiling recommendations--some "instruction sheets" say to oil the
"nylon bearings" -- I asked a Rowe factory engineer about that one time, and he muttered something about "leaving sleeping dogs lie"-----Oh, BTW, one of those "instruction sheets" that I have, says to add oil to the grease used in the trunion casting---
Ron Rich
I agree with Ron re the oiling of the motors.
The problem with telling anyone to oil anything is that they always go over the top, oiling will result in very clean mechanisms when cleaned up but they will need a lot of parts replacing because of the wear to the parts.
When people oil the gears on a R-84 to R-94 the oil drops onto the Sprag Wheel and rots the Stem Bushing and the oil builds up on the Magazine Gear and gives errors on the opto switch.
The first thing we do when we get a mechanism in is the remove all the lubrication and start again.
and lubricate only where needed and only slightly.
On the 1100 & 1200 mechanisms the gripper bow assembly should never be lubricated other than high melting point grease in the trunion casting pivot sockets. the nylon cam & trunion gear act as self lubrication against the cast gears. On these mechanisms one drop of oil on the idler wheel linkage at all the pivot points, oil the wicks/bottom oil tube on the turntable motor an put a film of oil on the turntable shaft using your finger, also oil the wicks on the transfer and mechanism motors.
IMHO that is the total lubrication on these mechanisms and the R-84 to R-94 need none.
Regards
Alan
Alan Hood
ami-man
UK
(EDIT--slightly dis-agree here--R84-94, in my opinion still need motor oil wicks filled, as above. Ron Rich )
Hi Alan, and all,
One thing always "puzzled me" about RoweAMi's oiling recommendations--some "instruction sheets" say to oil the
"nylon bearings" -- I asked a Rowe factory engineer about that one time, and he muttered something about "leaving sleeping dogs lie"-----Oh, BTW, one of those "instruction sheets" that I have, says to add oil to the grease used in the trunion casting---
Ron Rich
