Jukebox "Renovation" opposed to restoration.

[six9gs]

Back in "the day" I was a self proclaimed audiophile, at least as much of an audiophile as I could afford to be. Anyway, I have recently acquired both a Wurlitzer 3100 and a 3210. I'm hoping to get the 3210 functioning and cleaned up well and thinking I might be able to sell it for the money I've spent on both. At lease that's my general thinking. As for 3100 I'm thinking I could revive the mechanics and get that running well. BUT, thinking of replacing basically the whole audio system with much higher quality gear and better sound. Start by changing the ceramic cartridge to a moving magnet cartridge and then use a 80's-ish vintage integrated amp and change out speakers to good quality (I was a pro audio guy for years and would LOVE to install 15" Peavey Black Widows and go from there.


Anyway, my question is, is this a common renovation? I know that there is various interactions between the stock Wurlitzer amp unit and the rest of the mechanics of the jukebox that would have to be flushed out and contended with. I was an electronics tech back in the 80's, so definitely something I am capable of figuring out.


Anyway, anyone seen anything like this done?


Any thoughts?


Thanks for any advice, opinion and/or insight you might share!


Terry!

[Ron Rich]

Hi Terry,
IMHO, you will never recover the cost--and it will be a "hard sell", to find a buyer. Jukebox cabinets ('specially that vintage WurliTzer,) IMHO, just were not designed for better sound. All the audio engineers seamed to care about was volume--and no rattles, at hi volume.
Ron Rich

[six9gs]

Ron,
I don't intend on selling the 3100, so it's resell value is not a concern. Thus far I have about maybe $500 invested to include the jukeboxes, already purchased spare parts (Turntable motor mounts, belts, needles, amp recapping kits, centering pins, new casters. All parts purchased in pairs for the two jukeboxes), the manuals and some 45's. I think that if I can get the 3210 working, I'll be able to get a decent price for it. Cosmetics for it aren't too bad so I should be able to get it to look decent and shiny! IF I can recoup what I've spent, golden, if not, not a big deal either. Maybe I'll donate it to a senior center or something and take a tax deduction. I'll figure it out. Anyway, the reason for my idea of renovating instead of restoring the 3100 is specifically to address the poor quality sound. Despite my best attempts otherwise, I can be snobby about good sound and if it doesn't sound good, drives me crazy. You don't want to see me at a band's gig when they have a poor sound man, or none at all.

Besides better quality turntable cartridge, amp and speakers, I'm already thinking about the cabinet design and thinking of what I might be able to do to improve the acoustics. Isolating the 2 bass cabinet speakers with some kind of baffle panels and acoustic foam, adding some side projecting speakers to the main body and perhaps up top and then add additional wing speakers are all things I'm contemplating. I have a pretty decent 80's vintage turntable and system and the 45's I have actually sound much better than I anticipated, once I cleaned them up. So, I have hope that I might be able to get this jukebox to sound decent enough for even my snobby ears. Oh Yea, also thinking of adding a switch and a blue tooth device so that if I want I can switch the audio from the jukebox's turntable to a Bluetooth device I can listen to Pandora or my existing digital music collection. Probably not but also contemplating running a bi-amped system. When I did Pro-audio for many years I fell in love with bi-amped systems. At least where live sound was concerned it had so many advantages and noticeably (at least to me) better quality sound. Drawback, of course, being much more gear to contend with and more cabling to screw up on you.

I think a lot, unsure which of these thoughts will bear any fruit!

So, I got ideas, I've just been wondering if others have done any of the kinds of things I'm thinking of and if so, what did they do and how did it work for them.


Thanks for the feedback!!

Terry!

[Hildegard]

Hi Terry,

Of course one can do with its own jukebox whatever one wants, likes, prefers. There is no "law" to not do it.

Anyway, my thoughts:
I would think twice about making any changes to that one you want to sell. In my eyes for a jukebox equipped with not original units, changes at the outside etc, the value drops a lot; especially for collectors this model will be worth close to nothing.

For your own purpose it's allowed whatever you like to do.

Maybe you can do all modifications in that way that it could be converted back to original state later eventually. Just in case one day something else comes into your mind (or ears) ... 

Regarding the amplifier keep in mind the mute feature; means while selecting, placing the record onto the TT and bring it back afterwards the amp stays mute.

Regular amplifier from other audio systems might not have this feature.

An idea for a donation: Bring back to original state that model you do not want to keep for yourself. And then donate it to an olds-people home. They, I am sure, will appreciate it and can remember of good old days when jukeboxes were popular.

Regards - Hildegard

[robnyc]

Terry, There are inherent limitations on how far one can go with these old machines. I've operated a number of 1950's Seeburg system in retro-themed locations since the mid-eighties.

Regarding the Wurlitzer, here are some thoughts based on past experience with these machines:

-Tonearm bearings are crude and the arm itself is massive. There is also the factor of trip switch loading, though that can be somewhat ameliorated. In upgrading dozens of these machines, I found that 3 gm VTF is the best one can do, thus the stylus must be suited for "changer service". In past conversions I've used the Pickering NPAC or any other small body cart of theirs with a suitable stylus. The now discontinued Stanton (same maker) 400 or 500 series would be fine -if you can find them.

-The turntable is always going to have some rumble and, as belts wear, some wow. Again, there steps that will reduce this, but aiming for massive bass and level, especially in stereo will be less than ideal.

-The space for the woofers is, from what I recall not really large enough of larger than the 12" already used, though the 50 record mech does leave a bit more space. You'll have a hard time finding room enough for a adequate bass enclosure to be built in there for the 12" -let alone 15's.

The amps designed for these and all jukeboxes have certain features that are not common in home stereo stuff. There is AGC which keeps all records approximately the same level and mute which eliminates most of the audible noises involved in changer operation. The frequency response is also tailored to accommodate the speakers and likely acoustic conditions along with producing the expected "jukebox sound".

What I suggest here is that you restore these machines to saleable condition and use the resulting funds from their sale to get a more "hi-fi" capable machine such as a Rowe R90-through R93. Those machines come equipped with the quality of sound you won't really ever achieve with those old Wurlitzers -even after a lot of hacking. That era also had provisions for external line-level sources to play through the amp and speakers with minimal (or no ) mods.

RobNYC

[six9gs]

Thanks for the replies Hildegard and RobNYC. I had not intended to do anything but clean up, repair and revive the 3210 and then sell it. My original plan was, and is, not to modify it. I may not do a 'concours' restoration, but I intend to keep it as close to original in function and appearance as is practical. It was/is the 3100 I was thinking of getting bongo with. It's cosmetics are already in really iffy shape and it would be difficult to restore it to original cosmetics. So, I figured that made it a perfect candidate to make into a blank canvas, so to speak.

However, RobNYC thankfully has pointed out some glaringly obvious insurmountable obstacles for what I was thinking about. I thought a bit and remembered the reason I bought these, had little to do with the end product and everything to do with the joy of tinkering with, figuring out and learning how it operates, troubleshooting any problems and fixing them and eventually getting it to operate properly. As mentioned in previous posts of mine, I love both old mechanical stuff and the electronics of this basic era. However, no matter how much lipstick you put on a pig, you still have a pig. RobNYC, you make very good points on the limitations of the design of the Wurlitzers of this general era.

So, gonna take a bit to reassess what I want to do with the 3100. Since I was planning on fixing up the 3210 first anyway, I figure I'll have it figured out by the time I get around to it. I'm in the middle of my last project that I need to finish for several reasons before I can get to the 3210 anyway.

(I'm reviving a too rusted table saw that was my father's. He passed about 2 years ago and his table saw had been sitting idle for about 4 of 5 years so it has gotten all rusted up and needs a good going through in general. I recently made a trip back home and brought the table saw back with me. A good table saw is a handy thing to have around and my Dad's is a good one and he has lots of attachments and extras. Plus it was my Dad's, gotta respect that. BTW, the forum made me aware of evapo-rust and it is definitely helping un-rust my Dad's table saw.)

Anyway, once again Thanks for the VERY useful feedback!

Terry!

PS. Hildegard, I lived in Wiesbaden from 1981 to 1986 and then again from 1989 to 1991. Loved it over in Germany. Regret leaving Wiesbaden and in many ways I wish I still lived there, although not sure I'd be playing with Jukeboxes if I was there. But, maybe.

[robnyc]

Terry, if you are interested I can describe the mods I did on these carousel mechs and sound systems.

RobNYC

[juke46]

We like our jukeboxes to roar (well, Anna does sometimes threaten to put a lump on my head for the loud volume)! The neighbors say they enjoy the music too. I suppose it is because loud was how they played when I was around them during the days when they were "on location" in a lot of places. I am always trying to decide if the Wurlitzer 2150 sounds better than any of the Seeburgs we have. For sheer volume I think the Wurlitzer 2150 wins. Those Seeburgs sound great too so it is a "toss up". I was surprised when we had the AMI Continental amplifier rebuilt. That one looked too complex for me to do. it sounds really great now. They all sound good! I like them all.

The older wooden Wurlitzer machines are great too. We have tampered with all of those, except for the Wurlitzer 1100 with the Cobra sound system. We did "modernize" those by modifying the original tone arms to a lighter weight and a modern cartridge so we can play vinyl 78 reproduction records of our time. I thought that we might have trouble with the light tone arm weight tripping the mechanical trip but we haven't had any problems at all once adjusted. I (we) like them all and cannot pick the best sounding one. They are all great! For durability and longevity, I think, Seeburg wins. For us, other than the old Wurlitzers with heavy tone arms, we like the machines to be as close as possible to the way the manufacturers made them. 

Checking the internet it appears some boomerang laminates are now, again, available.