LPC mech gets snagged all the way left

[babycat]

my beloved console has been so well behaved since Phonoland shut down, but i finally have an issue to bring to the new board!

so my lady and i were dancing to a choice selection and crashed onto the LPC... not too hard, but now when it scans all the way left, it will often get stuck and the mech will buck back and forth as it tries to head back to the right.   if i lift the mech and push it back a bit and to the right, it will resume its path to the right and even be OK for the left side for a few passes, but inevitably it gets snagged again on the left.

it seems like there must be an obstruction in the carriage path (like a fallen screw or something), but i haven't seen anything in the track.

i will add that my mech has always seemed a little loose in the track - sometimes when it stops after playing and scanning, it actually reads Q1 instead of S1, but that was not a problem in the year that i've had it so far...

cheers,
eric

[Ron Rich]

One of a couple of things could be happening- When this happens next time, look at the turn table, and determine which way it is turning ( clock-wise, or, counter CW, if you are looking at the TT from the left front of the cabinet) Once you determine that, TURN off the power-do not allow it to continue "clunking", as you are destroying the clutch member, at least ! Let me know which way it's going--
As for the looseness-- Do you have the Service Manual for that model, or any model ? --if so, check "clutch 3" adjustment--test, as shown BEFORE "adjusting". If you d not have a manual--check FAQ's above for where to purchase one. If clutch 3 tests good, check that the Record Now Playing lamp holder is adjusted correctly and that the screws holding it are tight. Ron Rich

[babycat]

Hi Ron! 

it just happened again, now it seems to happen ⅓ of the time.   

the rotation is counter-clockwise, looking from the left side of the box.
the reversing switch is on the right.

i stopped running the machine instead of trying to jostle it back on track.


looking at my LPC-1 manual and  "Clutch 3"  Detent Locking Adjustment, it is asking me to play in V8 position firstly...   so far i've been jostling the mech to free it up, but is there any gentler method to free it up?   



standing by,
eric

[robnyc]

Eric, the reality of this situation is that the clutch member is probably peened (worn-rounded notches. Try running it without the ten-ton mech cover. If the bucking stops or is greatly reduced that will pretty much diagnose it. I know Ron disagrees with me on this but, that mech cover, the fast scanning and one-direction tripping all add up to advanced wear on those clutches.

Of the three LPC's i used commercially (two hideways and one console)all has this problem to a certain degree. After finding it happening only after the HLPC was delivered and installed in Sept 1990, i made a point of taking the clutch apart and filing the notches true to a "V". Careful measurement indicated the to bottom of the gear that drives the mach had worn to a degree that the starwheel that engages the member was now slightly too low for complete engagement of the member notches. In those cases I added some thin washers to raise the gear-starwheel about 1/16".

After writing all this...it is possible that the use of improper or no oil has glazed the clutch yoke pivot thus preventing it from dropping thoroughly.

Note that if you go the route of replacing the entire clutch, only one for an LPC or PFEA1U are usable here due to gearing and a spring added though the individual clutch member will be usable from other models.

Bumping the machine had nothing to do with any of the above. The technical term for that is 'a fluke" :-).

Rob-NYC

[Ron Rich]

Hi Eric,
I agree with Rob, on most of this--It sounds as if, you have a problem in the clutch area. It will now be necessary to further the diagnoses. The easiest way I know is to remove the rear panel from the cabinet, play selections # V-8,and U-8. Watch the clutch yoke retaining ("e", or "c" ring) that holds the clutch yoke pin in place. When detenting, and rejecting, the e ring MUST/should NOT spin. If the ring spins,
the yoke, or the #2 detent lever, has frozen to the shaft. If the ring does NOT spin, I would suspect the longer "bearing block support pin" that connects to the dog link, has become loose, from the yoke. You will need to refer to your Service manual and I would humbly suggest that my "Seeburg Mechanism Guide" should be of help. (contact me to purchase it, if you wish) Ron Rich

[babycat]

thanks guys. i figure i can take a closer look this week. i've already been running it without the mech cover, so...

it has been four months since Warren did the overhaul and lube.   but i did end up adding a couple drops to the safety plunger when it was seemed to be getting snagged and it cleared up.   i'll drop couple on the yoke once i can get to it.   i had a little trouble recognizing it from the lube chart, but here's a photo from Tony Miller's site that got me recognizing it:

 also - any strategy of freeing the stuck mech, other than jostling back and forth?

Edit note:  Below photo is copy written by Ron Rich, and appears in "Ron Rich's Seeburg Mechanism Guide"--Used with permission, and info markings added by Tony Miller


safety_plunger by echoparkguitar, on Flickr

[Ron Rich]

Hi Eric,
If the turntable is, in fact, going COUNTER clockwise, for some reason the motor is failing to reverse. This could be caused by the reversing switch, or it's stop adjustment, a "magnetized" reversing relay (VERY RARE), "dirty"/failing "0" contact, and, failing motor run cap.
Instead of "jostling it", try removing power for a second and then turning it back on-- Ron Rich

[babycat]

yes, Ron - i've noticed a couple of times where stopping the mech with the service switch, and after resting for a bit, i could restart and it would resume scanning smoothly, with clockwise rotation.

and last night when it got stuck, i stopped it with the switch, and fully powered down for the night. no jostling or touching... today it powered up into a smooth scan.

indeed, the last time it got stuck, the TT was going counter-clockwise while bucking, though the reversing paddle switch had just been moved to the right.

[babycat]

by the way, the C-clip on the end of the yoke shaft does move while detenting and rejecting, but only about a millimeter back and forth. would that slight of a movement indicate a bind?

while i had it down at that end, i went ahead and lubed the yoke hub and end of the shaft. i found the photo in your mech guide, which helped, as it was more specific than the old lube chart.

[Ron Rich]

Eric,
Your problem is either the "0" contacts are not "making", or the 1.65 section of the motor run cap is bad.
The clip movement is probably not a factor here--- If you don't know how to clean contact points--see above posting, in FAQ's.

[babycat]

Feb 9, 2017 15:21:08 GMT Ron Rich said:

Eric,
Your problem is either the "0" contacts are not "making", or the 1.65 section of the motor run cap is bad.
The clip movement is probably not a factor here--- If you don't know how to clean contact points--see above posting, in FAQ's.

interesting - i've seen an occasional small arc happen on the switch stack when reversing direction on the right side (and possibly the left).  i'll clean and examine the "O" in particular, now that i see it in the manual.

is there a measurement i can take with a DMM somewhere to test the contact and the cap?

cheers.

[Ron Rich]

Hi Eric,
To check th contact itself--see the contact section of the FAQ's above- To check the cap, usually a DMM won't work--as in the case of the contact points,a good Analog type meter is much more "accurate". In eithercase, always dis-charge any cap prior to "checking" !

[babycat]

it seems the "O" contact has been working. after a good cleaning, i can't see any evidence of deterioration, though it's darn hard to see in there most of the time! i adjusted it a little closer as a test, but would still get the symptom, so i set it back to 3/64" gap. i was talking with Warren Rowe about the motor cap, he doesn't suspect that, as the problem is so intermittent, and the torque is generally strong.

i just cleaned the reversing paddle switch contacts... Warren was wondering if the reversing relay is not releasing properly. i've been watching it today, but no symptom yet...

i haven't had time to pull the clutch to look at the member... the juke is in my living room with guests staying this weekend...

but can we conclude that if the mech is not reversing in the first place,  it's probably bucking against the rubber stop, and that the clutch does not figure in at this point?

[Ron Rich]

Hi Eric,
Yes--I agree with that conclusion-- Are you viewing the "O" contact thru the "inspection panel"? If so, I would adjust it so the contact gap is as close as possible -- It MUST open when the mech goes into play-- To check to see if the reversing relay is not releasing, stop the mech at a point that you can see the relay thru the panel. While in SCAN position, the relay should change positions every-time the rev. switch is changed. Pay particular attention to the blade holder-- it MUST still be FIRMLY attached to the metal-must NOT be able to "flop", aka, bind up on the contact blades ! If that's all OK, it's "gottabe" the "O" contact, or the cap ---- Ron Rich

[babycat]

aye - thanks, ron. indeed i pulled not only the inspection panel, but all three front panels, so i can watch what it's doing especially on the left side where it will sometimes get stuck. i have not yet witnessed a lack of change on the relay... though the last time it got stuck, i was not there to see it, my lady just shut it off and luckily it re-started ok.

are the individual parts of the cap can accessible? or do you just replace the whole thing?

cheers,
eric