THE "BATTERY TRICK"----

[Ron Rich]

Preforming the "Battery Trick", on a Tormat (TMU) equipped Seeburg allows one to determine if there is a read-out / sense/ (detent), problem. Once determined the read-out/sense is OK, one can address any write in problems. To preform this trick, properly, one needs a good flashlight, "D" cell. Smaller cells USUALLY work, but there are cases where this won't be a positive test, if no, or intermittent, results are shown.  Remove the Tormat RCA plug from the TSR/TSU, or TCC. Touch the NEG. end of the cell to  a bare ground--tap the tip of the RCA plug on the + end of the cell, re-insert the plug, and start the scan by making a selection   NOTE: that procedure applies to all tube type units  ONLY--Non tube units( "Solid State") equipped with a TMU, need to have the  cell reversed--ground the +, touch the neg.  If the read-out/ sense are OK, it will DETENT at, EVERY selection on that phono--allow it to do so, for a proper RO test !  (tube type units up to the TCC, you can lightly hold your finger on the detent release lever and feel the pulses as it goes by each slot--this can not be done on later models). BTW--to un-select all, either remove the RCA plug and let scan,  or turn over the D cell  and touch the RCA plug tip, to it.

EDIT: LPC and APFEA-1, models, have a "Tormat(RCA) plug" for each side of the record rack. You must energize both plugs to test the RO/detent circuits.  Also, they should ONLY  pick up records going in the L to R direction.  Ron Rich

[juke46]

Ron,
Thanks for the great information for testing the Tormat! The Tormat is really an amazing device and seemed far ahead of its time. I believe 1957 was the first year? If my fading memory is correct the only one that really gave me a problem was in an L-100 machine (1957 was the year manufactured, I believe). Anna liked the machine because it was small and "cute". As it turned out it was not the Tormat, itself at all. It was the printed circuit boards on the back door and a couple of cracked tracks. When someone told me to check the circuit board tracks everything worked fine after repairs. I thought, or was told, the heat from the tubes damaged the boards. I also had a KD-200 (I think it was) that also had the circuit boards. I don't recall any problems except the edge connectors had to be cleaned or something similar.

The mechanism had a one-transistor pre-amp riding around on it too. I thought that was rather unique. 1957 was the year of innovation for Seeburg, I suppose, but it seems like the following year the circuit boards disappeared.

[robnyc]

"juke" Tormat first appeared in the 1955 V200 model in August 1954 (that is when it appeared on the price list I saw years ago).

The boards on K & L are the subject to a lot of folklore -just like the SHP amps. All sorts of "fires" and other BS.

The real problems were two:

1) Edge connectors on the power amp board that could not handle the current for the tube heaters.

2) Carbon tracks forming inside the boards between high and low voltage potentials. This afflicted both the tormat and amp boards.

The keyboard and tormat edge connectors were claimed to be a problem. With thorough cleaning a lot of these little issues go down the drain will the dirt.

I've owned 3 L's and used a K which I converted to later electronics and the only problems I've seen were what I described above.

The big Seeburg dist here in NYC was Albert Simon Co. They had a box full of those boards removed from various machines. Near the end of that co's existence I pulled the box down from it's shelf and looked them over. No evidence of fire or even serious arcing, but there was obvious heat and voltage damage. No one there had ever actually heard of a fire caused by these models. I kept a couple of the tone amp and tormat boards and repaired them with point-to-point wiring.

During the run of the VL Seeburg was bought by Triangle Industries. It was said that the factory workers were heading to unionization and J.P. Seeburg didn't want to deal with unions.

You also have to put the whole era for that company in context. The V was revolutionary -but trouble-prone due to the use of too many thyratron tubes and it was also seen as too "complex" by the pins and coils crowd. A mid-run change to fewer thyratons and simpler circuits for the Vl (L=light colors IIRC) seemed to fix things, then the board problems in 56-7 with the K&L. One of the VL's I have on location has date codes from March 1957 so I suspect they were either burning off the supply of extra parts or hastily converting back to the less troublesome model.

Ron will probably know the facts here.

They finally got it together with the 201...and then dropped 200 selection...

IMO Seeburg has the best overall system for mech and selection. It always seemed odd that the company convulsed in and out of bankruptcy for years and after issuing the first (and best) CD machine, just vanished.

RobNYC

[Ron Rich]

Rob,
"Triangle Industries" purchased AMi, or Rowe (look at one produced--look at the hex head screw's head, and you will see the "triangle")--NOT Seeburg. Seeburg was purchased by Fort Pit industries, which soon after the acquisition, changed it's name to Seeburg. "Seeburg" never made a CD phono ! The court closed Seeburg's doors in Sept. 79. The Seeburg Phonograph Co., formed by some ex Seeburg employees, started in production with the "Prelude"-SMC-3 phono--then the CD's--
You state one of the VL's you have has a 57 date code-- What kind of date code--On what ?? If so, I would suspect it was done in error, or that someone swapped a part ? Ron Rich

[robnyc]

"Seeburg was purchased by Fort Pit industries...." I keep mixing those tow up.

" "Seeburg" never made a CD phono !" Ron, the machines were available through the same distributor here in NYC, bore the same logo and had many of the same participants (or culprits, depending on your view). Everyone here just called them "Seeburg".

"You state one of the VL's you have has a 57 date code-- What kind of date code--On what ?? If so, I would suspect it was done in error, or that someone swapped a part ? Ron Rich"

Not likely, Ron. The codes are on the transformers in both TSR-3 & HFMA-1. They were also on the two ballasts (since changed) An actual written date is written on a cloth-adhesive sticker that Atlantic Dist in Brooklyn placed under the "chin" of the machine where grill light emerges. That one could simply have been a matter of it sitting on the floor awaiting sale. I took possession of this machine in OCt 1989 and was interested in how/why Seeburg was still making this model. I never got a definitive answer beyond saying that the K was "such a disaster...".

RobNYC

[Ron Rich]

Hi Rob,
Yes-- that "Seeburg" used the name and logo with permission from the owners of it--the Federal Court, in Chicago ! Seeburg was closed by the court Sept. 79, just as the doors were being opened by the new President of the "new" corp., after the "normal" summer vacation. "Seeburg" had divested itself from the phonograph division, and changed their name to "Xcorp." The name "Seeburg" went with the divested division. Stern ( the pinball Co.) purchased some of the assets from the court, about a year later, and began producing their version of the SMC-2 model. They tended to hang onto most of the old distributors, as there was no other way for the distribs to go-- Ron Rich

[robnyc]

Ron, I had bottles of "Stern-Seeburg special purpose oil" -with the Stern crossed out with wide marker. I got these in the mid-eighties from A Simon co. I should have kept the bottles as artifacts of jukebox history :-).

FWIW: I was told that after the initial Seeburg bankruptcy, Rock-Ola approached Simon co about again being their NYC rep. They declined. A better choice would have been Rowe, but they were covered then, as now by Betson in NJ.

Rob

[Ron Rich]

Rob,
How many of those bottles (with-out the Stern whited out), would you like ? I think I still have a case of them---If I had to guess, I would bet the white-outing of the word Stern, was done by the person that "founded" the company--he hated "Stern", for reasons unknown to me.
Ron Rich

[juke46]

Ron and Rob thank you both for the wealth of Seeburg and other's history. You both have a great deal of knowledge not to mention incredible memories. It is very interesting how the manufacturers changed, came and went through the years. I still have a couple of Wico catalogs. I bought stuff from them, maybe some cartridges and tone arm springs etc. The Seeburg V you both helped me with is still working well.  I really enjoyed the "Pin and Coils Crowd" comment!  

Years ago I saw a KD for sale, Anna bought it for $200 because I was at work. I cleaned it up as best I knew how and it worked fine. We had a small home and the decision was made to sale it. Two guys drove from Oregon or Washington State to buy it. I was shocked because they had arrived in a station wagon. We carefully loaded it and with an inch or two on the top and even less on the sides it fit but lying on its back. I asked how they knew it would fit. The reply was "we measured for it".  I guess they did! The weight made the back of their vehicle really, really go down. It was a terrible way to move a machine. I never heard from them again.

[Ron Rich]

Hi David,
I see in this post that you still have a couple of WICO catalogs- what years are they ?? I am looking for a mid-70's catalog-- Ron Rich

[nyjb]

Here's a little challenge:

I'd like to create a "gizmo" that allows one to use the battery trick with the flick of an ON-OFF-ON momentary contact toggle switch.  One of the "ons" would select all; the other would deselect all.  This is pretty straightforward if you disconnect the tormat from the receiver while flicking the switch.  I'm wondering if it'd be possible to create one that operated with both receiver and tormat connected, and have the selections operate normally while in the OFF position.  That is, the battery would have to come out of circuit in the OFF position, and the receiver would come out of the circuit when in either of the ON positions.

Pretty sure this can be done with two switches; could it be done with one?

Thanks,

Terry

[Ron Rich]

Contact Harold Hagen--
Don't know if he still makes the "Gizmo" (actual name he used !) or not-- [e-mail]
Ron Rich

[nyjb]

Thx Ron. FYI, that email address was kicked back to me. I found a different one at his site: [e-mail]. It went through. Will report back.

[Ron Rich]

Hi Terry,
Guess he's changed his email ?? Glad you located him==tell him "hi" for me --please -- Ron Rich

[nyjb]

This is from Dr. Know-It-All AKA Harold Hagen. You can see a diagram in one of his books, which I have found useful for many purposes.


I don't see an easy way to do this with a single on-off-on switch.

The way I made it, I used an SPDT momentary contact switch. In the
non-actuated position, the lead to the Tormat connects to the common
terminal of the switch. The normally closed contact goes to a cable to the
Selection Receiver. So when the switch is non-actuated, the jukebox
operates normally.

When the switch is actuated, the common terminal connects to the normally
open switch terminal, which goes to the battery.

The lead to the battery goes to a DPDT switch which is wired to reverse
the battery polarity. On the tube type selection receivers, if I remember
right, positive sets the toroids and negative resets them. On the solid
state jukeboxes, the polarities are reversed.