Prospective HF100G buyer seeking expert advice...

[C7]

Hey gents and ladies?

I spotted a '53 HF100G, locally, for, what seems to be an alright price.  I have always wanted one of these, but, being older, and, wiser now than in the past, I want to find out what I may be getting myself into, by asking for advice from the experts. 

The seller says the unit is all original, but, fully restored. Original meaning, the original guts are still there, and, haven't been swapped out to modern components. He also says the unit has been stored for 20 years.  There are no records with it, so I can't test the mechanism....or can I?.  The pictures show the unit powered up, and, lit. 

- It looks to be in nice shape. The side panels are solid, and, not woodgrain/striped like others I have seen.  Option? Or, botched refinish? The chrome appears to be good, the class is all there, and, not cracked. The only thing that stands out is a crack on the housing, next to where the record plays. 

- Being mechanically inclined, and, familiar with antiques, I would assume that after all that time, if everything is as it should be (working), it would probably need to be lubricated, and, some cleaning, at the very least.  Is there anything else that I would be able to see with the naked eye, and, without seeing/hearing them machine in action?   "...if you see [this], run! Run away! Don't buy it!"  

- is there an Achilles heel with these machines?  Something that if spotted, should make me run for the hills?  

- Short of taking a 45 with me, is there a way to test the machine to see if it works?  A diagnostic mode perhaps? To see if the mechanism moves, and, stops where it should? Or does it have to be stocked to do that?

- I have googled around, and, looked at parts availability. I have seen some odds and ends. A lot more than I expected to be honest.  Are there any parts that are absolutely impossible to find?  Parts that would render the machine, a 325lb paper weight?


Lastly, and, this is always a touchy issue...   If you read an ad that said:


"1953 Seeburg Hf100G. Fully restored.  No records included. Hasn't been used in 20 years."   Pictures look alright, except for that one cracked cover. 


What dollar amount would make you start to question whether or not the seller was high on cocaine?   Ballpark.  $1000? $2000? $3000? $4000? $5000? $6000? $more thousand?


I just want to get an idea of if it is a fair price, or, a suspiciously low price (he knows it is a lemon, and, wants to unload it for example), for what it is.  He says he is pretty firm on the price, and, I am comfortable with the amount he is asking, so, I am not trying to get an appraisal for haggling. Mainly, I am wondering if it is too good to be true.  


Thanks in advance.

[Ron Rich]

Hi C7,
Please READ, ALL the stickies in the FAQ section--especially the "Hi Newbies".
As for your "original" find--If the sides are "solid"--that ain't "original" !! ALL Seeburgs of that vintage, and for several more years had a 3M Di-nok finish. See the late Tony Millers web site.
Look at the units on/in the rear door--tell us the model numbers and I can tell if "original", or not. Remove the rear door "skin" and l@k at the components--anything appear "new" there? Check the 4 fuses--correct size/type ??
Ask owner if he/she has the Information & Operation Manual ( may have been called "Maintenance Manual"), for that model, read it, find the service switch, and use it to see if at least the motor will run ? I would first remove the amplifier fuse--if that unit has been "sitting 20 years"--the amp will need to at least, have the caps "formed" prior to use !! Ron Rich

[C7]

Taking into consideration the finish, which, I just noticed, has a large chip in it at the foot of one of the pilasters, and, the seller's claim that it has sat for that length of time, I think it would be better to remove the previous restoration from the equation, and, assume that it will need a full restoration...again.

I can do woodwork/refinishing. I have also done some basic electronics repair (I restored the Bose amps in one of my cars, and, put together one working Clarion Bose head unit from the carcasses of four), though strictly speaking, electrical is not my forte. Fortunately, there is a place that specializes in Seeburgs, about an hour from me, which I would probably take the guts to. I will give him a call, and, see if I can get a ballpark on a worst case scenario, so I know what I am getting into. This is more than likely what I will do, as I have no idea what forming caps is, or how it is done.

It would have been nice to have a turn-key/plug-n-play machine, but, for what he is asking, I think that is a tall order.

From the Googling I have done on prices, this one seems to be pretty much in line with the ones requiring a full restoration. Now, to figure out how much it will cost me to restore it!

Thanks,

Ryan

[Ron Rich]

Hi Ryan,
I would guess that assuming a full restoration, is needed, would be a safe assumption !
Ron Rich

[e093116]

Hi Ryan,

Unless the phono is the exact one you'd want, I'd proceed carefully.  Personally, I wouldn't be interested in a phono that's been previously restored, especially one that's not been refinished to "stock", I view a project like that as having to address the sins of the previous owner, in addition to any maintenance/repair/refinishing that would normally be required...making it that much more difficult, time consuming, and expensive!

If you're really serious, I'd consider making friends with the local enthusiasts (the Seeburg place you mention would be a good start) and network your way to finding what you want.

If you want a perfect #1 phono, the most cost effective method, much like classic cars, is to buy a restored example.  If you want perfect chrome, you can easily spend $2000 or more just on replating.  I think it's hard to come out "ahead" on a full #1 restoration unless the initial acquisition cost is $0, you find the cash box is full of quarters, and your time is worth $0/hour...

As I've gotten older, I've begun to appreciate things that are in good "original" condition vs. a perfect restored item.  The restored (or over-restored) items begin to look like reproductions in my opinion, and are just not the same as a good original.  

FWIW, I purchased a '54 HF100R project for $800 back around Labor Day.  It was missing the waterfall glass on the front and the coin mech, also found out later the speakers were blown & mismatched.  I spent another $800 on new speakers and waterfall glass, plus around $400 in maintenance items (caps, motor rubber, manual, tonearm springs, needles, etc), for a grand total of around $2000.  I probably have 40 hours into it.  I didn't do any refinishing to the cabinet, but I did take everything apart and clean/polish.  Fortunately, all of the items associated with the mechanism (plastics, bandshell, etc) and glass were in great condition.  The cabinet shows some wear/age, and some of the chrome is lightly pitted in spots, but overall it's appearance is pretty impressive from 3 feet or more.  

Good luck with your search, keep us updated on what you find/decide.

Bill

[Ron Rich]

Hi Guyz,
Thanks, Bill--I now have a way to describe some of the "restorations" I see. Having work for Seeburg, and Seeburg Distributing, company owned, and independent offices, for years, I have never been satisfied, with using that word. I was in charge of the restoration program, and as such we developed a protocol, and specs., for each model, for what we could call, and SELL as "restored". These phonographs needed to be "restored" to commercial, coin- operation.  I was nearly always "in a war", with the "bean counters", as they were always insisting that either we were using "too many new parts", and/or spending too much on labor. About 95% of the "restorations" I see today, which I used to call "refurbished", I am now going to call "Over-restored" ! Over the years, we sold thousands of restored Seeburgs, usually 1 to 6 years old. Ron Rich

[C7]

Here are the pictures from the ad.  I haven't gone to see it in person yet. 

















Not great pictures, but, they are all I have to work with at the moment. 


I am currently wrestling with the logistics of moving something of this size, and, fragility. 

[Ron Rich]

Bill,
Quit "wrestling" and READ, our FAQ's section, PLUS the stickies here in "Seeburg" ! Ron Rich

[C7]

I have read them. They didn't answer all of my concerns.
Neither did the articles I found on Google, or, the Youtube videos I watched before posting here.  


Thanks for the help. 




 

[Ron Rich]

Bill,
What other "concerns" do you have ? As for what you find on "Google", be careful, as much of that is erroneous !
Ron Rich

[vipertblck]

ryan,

this is MY experience and how I've done things, i'm sure i'll get slammed for it and told all the flaws i'm doing...but you can either do things your way, or learn from others and "by the book"....make your path or follow on one...my experience is only with the B & C model box's, so not sure how much different the one you're looking at is.

first thing when you look at it, on the amp pull the 5u4 tube out; it basically disables the amp from any harm ( so I read). being 20 years old that amp is more than likely in need of a rebuild with new capacitors. after that, plug it in and flip the toggle switch in the rear to power it up if you choose. if all looks good there should be 2 toggle switches under the lid/glass, beside the mechanism, one is a switch and the other is spring loaded. hold the spring loaded one and the mechanism SHOULD scan until you let go, this shows you the mechanics to scan are working.

there's more you can do to get it to play, but for just looking at it-prolly best to leave that once you get it home. lubricating things and manually flipping pins in the pinbank may not be what you wanna do if this is your first time looking and getting into jukebox's. if the mechanism moves with the toggle switch, that's deffinetly a good sign.

if you buy it, do as ron said and read the faq area; there's a spot in there for "moving a jukebox". I've done everything in between right and wrong. not ideal to lay them on their back, and again, we'll get hounded for it in the forum here....but yes I've done it. most important make sure you tighten down the 3 nuts on the mechanism, 9/16 hex. they pull the base down and secure it from vibration or movement while in transit. could also pull the tubes or secure things you feel necessary, up to you. if it's in a basement, have fun. if it's ground level, an appliance dolly is your best bet. basement's I've loaded them on the dolly sideways and taken it step by step with one guy on top controlling the dolly and another guy on the bottom lifting the box each step. once on ground level I secure the dolly to the back of the box, and place the configuration backwards to my vehicle, and either lift straight up onto the tailgate of my truck, or "lean and load" into the back of my CR-V. it's your choice how you wanna place it during transit. again, you'll get spit on if you lay it on your back, but I've moved 2 of mine that way (unrestored and didn't work). keep in mind the more people the better, these box's weigh a bit over 300 lbs so be prepared. i'm 31 so it's not too bad for me and one other guy to do these jobs..

make sure you use blankets when moving it with the dolly, and pay attention to where your straps are wrapping around it, don't wanna put any strain or load on the glass or pilasters (don't remember if yours has pilasters) to end up cracking or breaking them.


that's a pretty vague description of how I've done things, but you get the idea. lemme know if you got anymore questions, or message me.

good luck
kevin

[Ron Rich]

Kevin,
Pretty good advice--except for the 9/16 nuts--Your turn to READ that FAQ !!
Ron Rich

[vipertblck]

ron,

wasn't aware of the 1/4 shims or the 1/4-20 screws; where are these located in/on the box's?

kevin

[Ron Rich]

Kevin,
They are not "located in the box". See the Information & Operation ( or Maintenance) manual for each model. Ron Rich

[vipertblck]

ron,

see wat you mean about the 1/4 wood shims placed under the base at the 9/16 nut locations. it then says use 2" long thumb screws to secure the carriage when placed in the D1 playing position. assuming these are the 1/4-20 screws you mentioned, don't see where they go though. was lookin in the mechanism frame in relation to the base, but don't see any screw holes for that.

kevin