SCAMS !! WARNINGS !! (eBay and others)

[Ron Rich]

Hi All,

I guess I'm tired, and I know I'm old--this is sorta related to jukeboxes, but applies to anything also---- just a warning, as I am tired of getting questions from newbies asking about something they bought on line ( that usually "don't work"). IMHO, Many of the sellers, either don't really know what they have for sale (I'm being "generous", here--I think !), or are just plain LAIRS !  There ARE some ( or at least those who attempt to be) honest sellers around.  Just because one might find a part inside a certain cabinet, that does NOT insure that the part belongs to that cabinet-- It's very common for people to swap similar parts, without having any idea as to correctness, nor if in fact, it will function correctly.  Some of the sellers of needles, and cartridges for Seeburgs, are the "leaders" in the last description, area-- WATCH, whut youz buy !! AXK questions of the sellers, axk here--read the other FAQ's HERE --BEFORE, you purchase, anything--especially "NOS" products !! ( BTW--in case you do not know "NOS" means New Old Stock--{very hard to prove } -- something that was produced years ago, BY the ORIGINAL, maker, but NEVER, used !) Also, in case you don't know it--there is no "--late--higher output, production--" Seeburg cartridge !  All productions of Seeburg carts had to meet the same output specs. !  Coil meter resistance, readings, are mostly, meaningless, other then to assure the coil is not shorted, or open ! Output on all models after the "Blackhead" (  Mono "Redhead", and all stereo's), is determined solely, by the needles installed ! Also--Please note-- NO Seeburg, nor aftermarket, cartridge was ever made for use in a model B thru 201 !! Models B thru G/W used a "blackhead cart.", which required 7-8 grams of spring pressure--Redheads (used from the model R on thru the 201), used 4 grams of spring pressure. Those carts will not interchange, without the proper pressure springs (different lengths). (See the Seeburg section for more info on needles for 'burgs)

Amp "rebuilding"-- AXK the re-builder, if the AVC circuit is correctly re-built ?

EDIT-- 3/22--  Just spotted seller from China, selling 36 "Seeburg yellow wedge" needles for $195.00--Just looking at them-- the cantilever is WAY too long-- If it's correctly designed for the needle pressure required, it sure appears that the needle cleaning brush WILL wipe it out --  Should someone try these, please let me know --BTW-- All of his "numbering", except "P-340" is incorrect also--LOL--  

EDIT: 3/21-- seller selling a "very rare Stanton needle --for Seeburg Jukeboxes" Well, it AIN'T for a Seeburg, and any, attempt to insert it into a Seeburg cartridge WILL, instantly ruin that cartridge ! These needles look like they should fit, but they are too "thick".  Should one force one into a Seeburg Cart. and not hear the dreaded "crack" as the plastic splits, I can almost guarantee that the plastic will split before one can remove that needle !

Edit: At the moment (8/20), there is one seller selling "NOS Carts" that are neither NOS nor do (some of them) have NOS needles in them !  This seller also shows a "screw top" container with a re-printed label in it--Seeburg/Pickering NEVER shipped anything in a "screw top container"--they were all friction fit, pop off, types. Pickering  NEVER sold a 345 type cartridge new, that was equipped with yellow colored, plastic encased, needles, nor were there ever "Pickering printed" inserts, for a cartridge marked as a "340" !!! Seeburg never sold ANY 345 type carts-- that was done by Pickering only.  Also-- I have never before seen a "NOS" cartridge marked with a Seeburg Part #(253781), which had a sticker on it that said "Pickering", not Seeburg ?  This seller also has an Arista (two "Ronnette" cartridges glued back to back), after market designed to retrofit model A Seeburgs. Only he omits the fact that it is not usable without the correct "new style"  (4) springs, which were supplied, in that "un-opened box" (?) !

,

EDIT (12/19) Don't know about the quality/price, or seller, but the seller HONESTLY, lists the Yellow wedge needles correctly, on ePay !   "Moneymachines" is seller's name.

EDIT (1/20)  Just spotted a seller with very deceptive wording. He has a photo of a genuine, Seeburg "Yellow" needle package, that obviously, has been re-packed with aftermarket stylii.  I did contact him (as I have contacted MOST of these sellers!), via Epay--his answer was to change the wording to now only, "infer", that these are genuine stylii !

EDIT (8/20). There is an ePay seller now offering a "Seeburg 249235, Detent switch", for only "$95.00" US, that is a poor aftermarket copy. It has either gold flashed, or gold, contact points that are press connected,  to the blades. "Gen-u-whine" (Guardian made), Seeburg Detent switches used prior to the SMC models, require a welded to  the blade, contact point, as they MUST carry a high current load. SMC/100 79M, models had only two contact connectors, were gold, or gold flashed (?), pressed on, but carry only 12 volts, almost zero current, loads (parts catalog's still list this number, in error).

DO NOT, purchase ANYTHING, from an eBay(or any) seller, who will not answer questions !!  One seller of manuals on ePay, mentions "most complete", or "latest edition--compiled from--Master Manuals",  in his offerings many times-- Only one problem-- there were no "Master Manuals" printed for that model Home Stereo, (or any Home Stereo!). The "Master Manual" program ended two years prior to the release of this unit, and only covered "jukeboxes" !   I questioned him on one item that I guessed might just be incorrect, as there was a "ton of" errors in the early printing of that manual---- I just asked (very nicely !) if he included the "factory supplement" in this printing-- his answer "--we don't want your business--"  ??  (refer to our FAQ's section, for "errors in printed material").  This seller, also seems to have an awful lot of "rare" manuals, for sale?  (I suggest you refer to our FAQ's section, and purchase a "package" from one of the sellers listed there !)

HINT: IF, you decide to purchase ANYTHING, from eBay (especially  carts and needles !), READ the sellers (Negative) feed back --first !!  Some of the neg. feedback is ridiculous, as eBay favors the purchaser, over the seller--but, judge for yourself -- one can usually tell--

Rebuilt amps ?? Be sure that even if my name, or Tony's name is mentioned, the seller has "rebuilt" the amp correctly !  Use of my name ( and of course the late,Tony's) is NOT, nor ever has been, authorized !!

BTW--another one of my "pet peeves" is the sellers that have 'RESTORED", things for sale, that have been changed from original. To me, the word "restored", means it has been brought back to the OEM specs. I see all kinds of things "restored" to non-original finishes/specs. ?? How can this be, or do I not understand the word ??  "Original--NOS--New" are also words that should be examined, along with "works/working", and "rare---", in any offer.  If you are purchasing a "CAP KIT"-- question the seller-- is that the correct kit for the-- version--of amp, and / or other unit, he is supplying the kit for ?? ANY Seller who "don't know"/won't answer--I don't buy ! 

More, "eBay ease" daffynations:  "--The word "Untested" =, I'm sure, it don't work, but I don't want to admit it  !!  "Tested" = it might do something, however, what, I dono, and we don't warranty it !   "RARE" = I ain't seen many of them-but that don't mean nothing !   "--looks OK ( or good) to me--" = I have no idea what this here thing is/does/ or should do, nor what I'm talking about !  "Brand new" = something that was "new" at least, 25 years ago-- hasn't been produced in a "coon's age".  "Speaker sales"-- selling Seeburg speaker sets, outside of their specific cabinet mountings as "sounding good, or great", is usually coming from deaf ears !  Seeburg, and most other jukebox makers designed their speakers to fit specific cabinets, and the current, at that time, amplifier installed, in THAT cabinet !  "Professional Restoration"-- guy's been paid to "restore it", but has no idea what it originally had in it, nor looked like, nor how it should operate--but he WAS PAID  (LOL) !  "Working"  =, somewhat , O'couse, I dono what all it should do ?-- seller may have plugged unit into something and seen it do something--therefore it "worked" ! "there was no smoke !   One seller is selling "tested-working" Seeburg DTP-1's, that have been tested on a phono that is "set for free play" (DTP stands for "Digital Transmitter & Pricing unit") ?  "Exact replacement"=

sometimes correct, other times widely exaggerated. "Original" things that are not "original"-like "original title strips"--NO coin op maker ever sold a product, that included records/printed strips !!

Seeburg "SSU-4 Steppers" were sold, ONLY, in "kit form". This kit consisted of the SSU-4 stepper, the instruction sheet, AND the required cables to use the stepper. "E-seller's", for the most part, never tell you it's a useless  boat anchor, which can not be used, without the correct cable (s), which are hard to find .

REMEMBER-- EBAY CHARGES SELLERS TO POST ITEMS THERE--THEREFORE, MOST ITEMS SOLD ON EBAY (AND AMAZON), NEED TO BE SOLD AT A HIGHER PRICE TO "PAY" EBAY !

Also-- a "cap kit" offered anywhere, is NOT, a "re-build kit"-- it contains only the caps--and does not consider that other "stuff" has deteriorated!  It does not (IMHO) do any thing like a pro would do-- as it just replaces some caps--

"SNAKE OIL" ?   NO oil can be the "best" for everything-- see the oiling recommendations, in our FAQ's section, before you buy the stuff, sold on ePay !

"FREE SHIPPING" ?  NO can do-- no way !! -- somehow, "free shipping" must be paid for -- !

One of my favorite semi scams, is one that Seeburg's word smiths did with the introduction of the model B.  They used a decal on the front glass  that read " The worlds first commercial mechanism designed exclusively to play 45 rpm records".  It was not the first commercial mechanism that played 45's !  The truthful description would have been-- the 1st commercial machine redesigned so it can not, play 78 rpm records ! 

EDIT (2/21): Found a new "scam", to me-- at least-- guy selling 3 wire cable for wallboxes,and/or speakers, on ePay-- Claims his wire is "---99.99 % pure copper, with 0.0005 % oxygen  content, so this makes the wire resistant to oxidation, and increases conductivity, and protects your Jukebox, unlike other less expensive wire--" Infers that his wire sounds better, and will not short out (due to the oxygen ?), like other stuff. I don't think, any human, can ever tell what  type wire is used for sound !? 

Edit: Found another one this AM (2/22/21)-- Guy selling "Tone arm springs (Seeburg ) exact replacements for models B thru 201"-- AINNA NO SUCH THING !   Models equipped with the "black head" cartridge, had shorter springs then models from the R on, that were redhead equipped (see the parts catalogs).

YOUTUBE Videos-- In My Humble Opinion, are usually suspect--Most are made be a person who has one phono, and very limited knowledge-- OFTEN have more "wrong" then correct statements/proceedures-- see the Service Manual--

 

Ron Rich

[bobnewyork]

I have to laugh at someone selling more than one tube of the same type, they all seem to be " Matched Pair ". Most of the sellers don't have the equipment to claim a " Matched Pair ".

[Ron Rich]

Hi Bob,
Even better then that, they claim to have matched tubes such as 5U4's which are almost never used in pairs ! Also, Seeburg needles used to be sold in a matched pair configuration--matched by Pickering, and color dotted-- I see "NEW in the (plastic) BOX ", needles being offered with different colored dots on them ?? Ron Rich

[bobnewyork]

I don't know who is making " Replacement " needles for the old Pickering cartridges these days. My Sound Leisure ( made in England ) Jukebox uses the Pickering 0 3D cartridge and when I knew Pickering was being bought out I bought a bunch of needles from Pickering. These are the green ones with tracking pressure of 4 grams. I also have some of the original pickering SS 160 yellow ones so I feel I have myself a lifetime supply of the real thing. When I was working for the AMi Distributor we bought 100 lots of Shure N44 C stylii at $6.95 each so I stocked up on those as well.

I am not sure about the colored dots on the " replacement " Seeburg needles. I don't remember the colored dots as the only needles I had anything to do with were the yellow SS160 type and the same style one in green for a higher tracking pressure. The only other ones I had anything to do with were the grey Pickering " T Guard " as used in the LPC 1 and slightly earlier models. There was also a red version of the T Guard needle which was a monaural needle for the Seeburg 1000 BMS unit.

For many replacement Jukebox needles now, unless you can get original manufacturers needles such as Shure, it's a guessing game if you get one close to original spec and tolerance. Are Phansteil needles any good ? I read about them often as replacements.

I remember when operators were buying off brand discount needles for their AMi Machines but they were the wrong needle. A lot of them were white which I think was a light tracking stylus, and they wondered why they had skipping problems with their machines. My boss even fell for that til I showed him the chart from Shure.

If you are not aware of it, Sound Leisure Ltd in England started manufacturing 45 RPM jukeboxes about a year ago after a 20 year abscence of making Vinyl Playing machines. They had to go to Japan to have an 0 3D style cartridge made, I am not sure who made the needles for it.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2bEpXlM8F8

www.youtube.com/watch?v=t43Jv5uUHRc

[Ron Rich]

Hi Bob,
It would appear that several different people either make, or have made them. The color dots were on the original Pickering sapph., and diamond "T" shaped stereo needles. See the notes on needles, in the Seeburg section. Sound Leisure is sold here in the USA, under the "Crosley" brand name.Ron Rich

[bobnewyork]

I have had a Sound Leisure Jukebox for over 25 years. I dont know how they ever got involved with Crosley which is usually known for cheap stuff like their " Crosley Cruzer " portable phono.

In the past Sound Leisure tried selling to operators in the USA but like NSM, many operators were afraid to buy foreign made machines.

Sound Leisure does make very high quality products and are now the only ones in the world making a 45 RPM Jukebox, although at a rather steep price. It is all hand made in the UK.

[Ron Rich]

Hi All,
As of June 2019, "RockOla"( Antique Apparatus), has announced it will begin making 200 selection vinyl 45 rpm players, mounted in their famous re-pro cabinets. I don't know if these will be strictly "home" units or commercial units-- They claim to be using the old RO mechanism, with modern electronics ---
BTW-- The Pickering/Seeburg cart spoken about above, is NOT an "03 D" It is either a 340, or a 345 -- "03-" signifies which version, of the cartridge and the style of needle (D for diamond--S for sapphire) .
Ron Rich

[Ron Rich]

Hi All,
Another one of my "pet peeves"-- Sellers on ePay, saying they have "complete" Seeburg manuals for sale-- but they have not included the Seeburg printed "updates"- In other words, some of the "stuff", they have printed, is not correct ! One should AXK any seller, prior to purchase, if the manual is 1. "complete", and 2. contains the latest revisions. On other brands, one should axk if the manual contains all schematics for that model--- Ron Rich

[Ron Rich]

OK--another "Pet Peeve"-- The "Snake Oil Salesmen" selling the "Best" oil, for EVERYTHING, on ePay- Do not fall for their made up "facts". FACT, it is NOT the best for everything--Sin. oil, and PTFE, may be great in some apps, but harmful in others--thus, it can NOT, be the "best" for everything, as advertised--also check the price per gallon !! OUCH !!!

[Ron Rich]

Ran into another one--Customer purchased a "Restored" (Johnny Rocket's) 3W1 wall box and had problems with it-- Well, it weren't "Restored", IMHO, it was "Hacked". Yes-the cover was, nicely plated-- but the rest was a mess-- The "glass front", was replaced with a plastic one. The Autoformer for the lamps was removed, and the lamps run on 25 vac (1819's were used). Many of the illumination lamp sockets were eliminated. the credit lamp section was missing the cover and mounting screws. The anti-cheat switch was missing--wires connected with an insulated screw-on type connector.

Watch out for these--they "look good" but are beat to----! Ron Rich

EDIT, (9/29/19) 

Got an email from another purchaser of a "Restored Johnny Rockets--Seeburg 3W-1"-- This one is not even a Seeburg product, just a "look-a-like" --no way that I know of to hook it to a 'burg--- Ron

[Ron Rich]

Hi All,
Sorta in defense of eBay sellers-- sometimes they just don't know what they are talking about--If an item is found inside a machine, they ASSUME, it belongs in that phono. Wrong-- I once "found" a Seeburg WSR-5, in a V-200 phono, that someone purchased, and sent to me to rebuild. The purchaser lived in another country and purchased what he thought was a easily restore-able machine, from an eBay seller. I have no idea what he paid, nor when--I just know the poor guy spent over a year, trying to get it fixed, prior to my involvement. Moral of the story-- KNOW what you are paying for ! (AXK questions, of the seller, and here, to verify story !) Ron Rich

[Ron Rich]

OK-- I'm "bitcin" again-- up till 11/19, my wife and I had a "100%", eBay feedback record. That was almost a 20 year record !  Then a lady (who later admitted her errors), wrote a very negative feedback.  This (because we are a very small seller), dropped our feedback to 95%.  This lady attempted to remove that negative feedback to no avail-and counter posted the fact, that it was written in error (read it yourself-- seller's name is "memareich8ouq"). EBay still refuses to remove it today, even after several attempts by both, me and the buyer ?? -- Ron Rich

UPDATE: After one full year eBay has re-instated our 100% feedback rating--However, if one scans our feedback, the neg one, with corrections by the writer,  still shows as above ?

[juke46]

Ron,
We sold on EBAY for years and did make a lot of great sales and good profit. One buyer finally claimed a radio scanner did not work and immediately left bad feedback. Before we could contact her (as I remember) EBAY demanded I refund her money (they were going to take it from our account). Hardly seemed fair. It seemed really unfair after a perfect record for a lot of years and many sales with that one negative feedback. In such a case we would have made a refund without any argument. She never gave us a chance to do anything. Past similar instances I just made a refund for something like that and asked the buyer to throw it away.

I would not let it bother me too much. No matter how hard you work to be sure buyers are happy there is always one and Ebay is not very cooperative in my opinion. You have a wonderful record and I believe most people will realize the buyer was unreasonable and also regretful of her negative feedback. Ebay is unreasonable and because, it seemed to us, the buyer was in charge no matter what in the end, we stopped our selling on EBAY.

I once sold a multimeter of some sort and shipped it USPS Priority. I got a picture from the buyer of a crushed box and the metal case had been smashed into the opposite side. No he would not pay shipping insurance. It had the looks of a forklift tine crushing (stabbing) it. We promptly refunded the buyer's money, who would not pay shipping insurance and laughed at the whole thing, saying "it might have had some rough handling along the way". "throw the squashed meter away". He left no feedback. We never had a damaged in "shipping" thing except the meter with a metal case.

[Ron Rich]

Hi David,
Yes-- what can one say-- I try very hard to describe whatever I offer, perfectly, and try very, hard to get it to the customer in good shape-- However, I find that people are reluctant to pay for shipping insurance, but do "scream", loudly, if it gets there damaged ? This lady was really upset at first, as she did not realize that eBay, not me, added her state's sales tax to the item-- "Someone" once said "--You can't please all the people, all the time, no "maDDer" how hard you try---" Ron Rich

[armandh]

even if truly NOS the needles rubber damping material will likely be rock hard.
I did get a pair of yellow wedge needles that were excellent sounding

but at my age I forgot who from.

a book mark in my browser is to a page much like Durfies' [was]

and after a long scroll down shows the needles as out-of-stock