Seeburg STD-160 scans twice, stops, no selections play

[tnarv]

Hi all. I'm a newbie to the site. I've read other posts about this problem(scan twice and stop) on other Seeberg models and it's helped me somewhat with my problem, but have not solved the problem as yet. Here's what I've checked so far. 1) Checked and cleaned carriage switches. 2) Purchased a complete manual from "always jukin'": and used the troubleshooting procedure to test all voltages on Control Center. All are good. 3) Used the "battery test" to "select" all Toroids on the Tormat but afterwards the mechanism did not select all records, play them and put them back when manually scanned as the manual states. I DID however use the battery to "gate" the SCS  and turn it on during scan and that worked, meaning the carriage made a selection. 4) Used analog meter to adjust detent switch as per manual and still no selections are played. 5) I moved the Read-Write jumper and pivoted it to the trip terminal, it scans and selects every record A and B sides. I also got the machine to make a selection by removing the Tormat RCA plug and plugging it back in during a scan and that results in a trip and a selection is chosen. I'm now at odds at which direction to go at this point. I checked the "sense loop" for continuity all the way back to the Control center. I also used an analog meter with probe on the write-read jumper, put mech into scan and watched for dip in voltage as it scanned and it seemed OK. Not sure how much of a variation I'm supposed to see as it goes from one Toroid to another. If you could guide me in the correct direction from here would be much appreciated. Thanks.

[Ron Rich]

Hi Terry,
Please read the "Hi Newbies" post in our FAQ's section-- more info needed--- Ron Rich

[tnarv]

Already read once but read again. I got this STD160 Seeburg Vogue Juke(1976 I believe was the manuf. year) from someone who asked if I would look at it. I don't know the last time it worked. It won't play any selected records. I cleaned and lubricated the the mechanism, just scans twice and stops in it's home position. If I remove the Tormat cable from the Central Control unit and plug back in and pressing the scan swtich it will trip and mech enters play. I adjusted the dentent timing switch to make sure it was right(had to clean the switch as it was very dirty and pitted)filed and burnished it, still no selected records. Adjusted the "frog" contact block as per the manual. Still no selections when entered on keyboard. Tried moving the Jumper on the Control unit to the Trip relay position and it will then select every record and play them. I used the battery trick to charge the Tormat which produced no selection of all records when put into scan mode. When I connected the battery to the gate of the SCS in the central control and scan again it makes a selection. That's where I'm at the present. Voltages on the Central Control are all correct i.e. -27v. +13 etc. Have I eliminated the Gray box and the trip circuitry with what I've diagnosed so far? Do you think I have a possible problem with the Tormat since I cannot "charge" it and force it to select all records? Hope this is enough info to get us started. Thanks so much in advance Rich. Hope you can help me.

[Ron Rich]

Hi Terry,
OK-- so I assume you have metered the frog pick-ups thru to the reversing switch ? Do you have a good, analog meter ? If so, read from the "read-out link" on the DCC to ground with the mech scanning-- what do you read ? As for the TMU, I doubt it's a problem-- read the out-put loop from the DCC end-- should read about 2-3 ohms. Do you hae a copy of my "-- MicroLog Trouble Shooting Guide" ? Ron Rich

[tnarv]

Hi Rich,
Ok. metered the frog pick-up through the detent switch and you stated that it should then run to the reverse switch. I can't see that running to the reverse switch on this model mechanism, but I did check and have continuity all the way back to the DCC read terminals from the frog pick-up. With the analog meter attached to the "read-out link" on the DCC and, before scanning, I measure 120-125v. to Gnd. When I start to scan the voltage dips to around 75v.and kind of quivers there(needle on analog metere varying slightly a volt or 2) until it again reaches the magazine reversing switch where it momentarily goes back to 125v. then dips again to 75v. until it scans twice(with 125v. reading at each reversal, then stops and supply volts.(125v. remains)until next scan. Hope I didn't run in circles here. One thing I did notice, I just happened to read the "write-out" voltage on the DCC and it only reads around 46v. unless I remove the gray box supply connector and the voltage shoots up to 125v. Just wondering if that's an issue or not. Was just wondering if the gray box was possibly loading down that voltage. Also, where can I order you Microlog Troubleshooting Guide? Thanks Rich.
FYI, the mechanism I have with this machine is 160ST26(STD160). 

[Ron Rich]

Hi Terry,
My bad--Sorry ! you are correct, the reversing switch is not in this circuit, as the frog sensors are "flipped", just like the older models that used the reversing switch to "flip" from pin to pin. 75 VDC is just on the hi side-- I prefer it to be 55-65. Tighten the adjustment screw, just a hair-- A little "quiver" on you meter is probably OK-- don't know the quality of your meter-- Did you attempt the "battery trick" ( see sticky, if you don't know how to do it)? Is the Detent switch clean-- free of "pits/burs" ? Ron Rich

[tnarv]

Hi Rich,
I adjusted the detent contacts just a hair as you recommended but the voltage went even higher. Not sure how critical this voltage is whether it's a little high or a little low? Should still make at least some selections or give some indication that it mattered I would hope. I cleaned the detent switch a while ago. It was very dirty and one contact very pitted, so I had to file the one blade quite a bit to remove the deep pit, but the contacts now are very clean. I adjusted it and hopefully it's adjuted pretty close. As far as the "battery trick," I tried that many times using the 1.5v. battery with + to chassis and neg. - to center pin of Tormat cable. Doesn't result in all Torroids being "selected" and stopping at every record when I manually scan, so that didn't work. As I mentioned earlier, I found some other troubleshooting methods on "the late" Tom Miller I think his name is old website. It shows my symptom and what to try. Tried the "battery trick," didn't work, tried adjusting the read/write voltage which I just checked w it being nominal. He also mentions removing the Tormat plug at the DCC, plugging it back in during a manual scan. That test resulted in a random selection, so that worked. This machine also has the screw terminals on the DCC with the voltage readings readily accessible for checking. All the voltages except the "write-in" voltage measure good. Also I mentioned before that this write voltage, according to Tom Miller's troubleshooting should be 125v. I eliminated the DCC PS by removing the power to the DRD1(Gray box)and the voltage goes to 125v, with it connected the voltage measures somewhere aroun 46v. Not sure if there is a problem here or not. I DO know that this gray box is a "gray area"(no pun intended) as they are NLA, and even if it was the problem, I'd be out of luck. One other note: There's a shorting jumper on the DCC screw terminals that have a shorting bar between Read-out and Read-load that troubleshooting says to remove the Read-out load side of the jumper and pivot it to the "Trip" screw, put in manual scan and should pick-up every record, play and contine to next record. THIS WORKS!! I know I've posted a long reply and I'm sorry for all the info but trying desperately to get to the exact point of problem here. Hopefully, w the info I have relayed to you, maybe you could steer me in the right direction as what to do next(if anything). As usual, thanks for your help so far Rich in trying to help me solve this. Terry

[Ron Rich]

Hi Terry,
The DRD is not your problem at the moment-- It may have problems, that I can fix-- but your problem is in the read-out section. You are turning the adjusting screw the wrong way-- Didja compensate for the filed off silver-- is the air gap correct on the Detent points ? Did you examine the read out contacts-- are they worn, have a groove in them ? Has the TMU been moved--is it correctly adjusted ? Have you measured the out-put loop of the TMU ? Ron Rich

[tnarv]

Hi Rich,
Ok. I'll try adjusting the dentent switch adjusmtment screw the other way. Does turning the adjustment screw on the detent switch affect the amplitude of the voltage measured at the "Read-out" terminal when scanning? I find that interesting but I don't work on this type of equipment that often so I'll heed your advice. I see in the manual that you can also adjust the roller lever that has to be centered on the high point of that cam. Is that something I should check too? I also DID move the Tormat assembly when I had the mechanism on the bench. I followed the manual for adjusting it for proper position but was just a little confused by the first adjustment. Procedure states to center the contact block contacts on the plastic frog assembly to the the pre-formed plastic arrow pointer and line it up between the rivets with the read-out contacts lying on the bakelite between the contacts. That confused me as I thought the idea was to exactly center the contacts on the pins so that's what I did plus the vertical and horiz. adjustments. Can you help me there? Am I reading the manual wrong? Dopesn't the fact that every record is played when I move the jumper on the DCC to "Trip" confirm that the Read-out contacts are correct or is that incorrect? I checked the read-out contact points and they seem fine. I cleaned them and the brass rivets with a Fibreglass eraser and lubed them with pinball contact grease, just a very light coat. By "measuring" the output loop of the TMU you mean measuring for continuity or voltage output there? Thanks Rich. Terry

[Ron Rich]

Terry,
From what's written here, I need to assume the TMU centering adjustment is in-correct-- CENTER the CONTACT, in between two rivets on the TMU when mechanism is fully in play position near the center of the record rack-- Then re- check the read-out voltage as it scans-- set for about 60, volts-- Yes-- you are reading the timing between the time the Detent switch closes, and the sensor is on the rivet-- No moving the trip jumper only connects the Detent relay to ground-- The rivets on the TMU are not "brass" finished--or were not-- they were gold flashed-- no GREASE of any kind should be anywhere near them ! Where are you reading ( which manual) that the roller that has to be centered on the high point of (WHAT/WHICH)cam ? Ron Rich

[tnarv]

Hi Rich,
First of all the "brass" rivets on the TMU ARE gold, sorry, I forgot they were. They look fine. I'll make sure to clean them thoroughly and remove the grease I applied earlier. Also, I measured the "sense loop" at the DCC end and of the RCA center pin and it measures around 2 ohms. I'm totally confused as the procedure to adjust the position of the Tormat Unit. I have enclosed photos of the procedure shown in my owners manual I got from "always jukin." The "cam roller" you asked about is also included in these photos I'm attaching. I still don't understand why they would have you adjust the Tormat so the Contack block contacts are centered between the rivets. The reference arrow points to the proper rivet but the next procedure tells you to adjust the horiz. position so that the contact block contacts are directly on the rivet. This contradicts what it tells me to do in the first step(Tormat Adj.).I understand now how the detent voltage is developed and why you have to use an analog meter as a digital meter can't capture a quickly varying voltage and besides it's an average and digital meters don't read averages very well. In any event, I'm sending this post with the photos and maybe you can clear up my confusion with these adjustments and also the photo of the "cam roller" adjustment and whether it's a necessary adjustment or not. Thanks Rich-Terry

PS Attempted to upload attachments but too large to send I guess. Please check your email as I sent them to you via that.   Terry

[Ron Rich]

Hi Terry,
I got them -- and answered as best as I can--OK, I think, I see what's confusing you-- the 2nd page is telling you that-- WHEN-- the contact is on the rivet, it must be aligned so that it is passing (centered on) the rivet as it rides over it-- instruction A is not correct-- mech should NOT be in "play position" at this time ! I'm still at a loss as to the "cam roller" ? Ron Rich

[tnarv]

Hi Rich,
I think you explained it very well-Thanks so much. I believe the first page adjusment might pertain to the Select-O-Matic "100" Mechanism. Now that you mention that it was not correct. I noticed an *(asterisk) that states on the bottom of the page "Information in parenthesis pertains to Select-O-Matic "100" mech. I think that explains that. Ok. I'll go by the 2nd page adjusment which is where I had it set before. I think I mentioned that I did adjust the detent switch adj. the other direction and the voltage read is now around 60-65v.Much closer to the proper voltage. Problem now is, I don't know what to check from here. I'll adjust per manual, reinstall the mech and go from there. Thank you Rich. You've been a great help so far. Terry

[Ron Rich]

Terry,
NO !! The * refers to the location of the 100 select models, when doing this adjustment ! Alignment is the same for all mech's using this type read-out frog ! Ron Rich

[tnarv]

Rich,
Made all adjustments to the TMU and contact block, still no selections. I think I mentioned before butI tried the " battery trick" to select all the Toroids and have it select and play all selection but that hasn't worked either. The only way I can get the mech to play anything is to momentarily touch a 1.5v. battery with + on the gate of SCS 3100 and ground or removing the Tormat cable and plugging back in during a scan, it selects then. It's obvious I'm not getting that pusle from either the Tormat circuitry or from a pulse amp.(if this has one, not sure)to "turn on" that SCS. Frustration starting to kick-in a bit. Thanks. Terry