MM-4 capacitor identification

[thephantombrain]

None of the lights in the animation assembly on my MM-4 work. I've tracked the problem to faulty ceramic disc capacitors but am unable to identify because I dont understand what jf means in the nomenclature.

The full readout on the cap is - RWC JF.0022 10% Z5F

I've tried googling and I'm thinking the JF is some older designation that has been replaced but cannot seem to find any translation.

Thanks in advance for any help here.

Brian Wiles
Wichita, Kansas

[Ron Rich]

Brian,
I dono what all that means either--but what makes you think these are "faulty" ? Ron Rich

[thephantombrain]

May 8, 2021 2:38:14 GMT Ron Rich said:

Brian,
I dono what all that means either--but what makes you think these are "faulty" ? Ron Rich

There are 3 bulbs in there that are supposed to flash about 10 times per minute. Each of those bulbs are in parallel to each other. One power leg on each of these circuits goes through a resistor, then a disk capacitor, and then an obsolete "flasher" relay. If I bypass each component with a jumper, I find that power is being stopped at the output of the capacitor.

I'm not entirely sure that I understand a flasher circuit. It's something about storing power in the capacitor and then discharging it when it reaches either its value or the value of the resistor. This action is supposed to kick the "coil" of the relay, causing it to open and close its internal contacts. Or something like that.

I had previously checked the value of the resistors and they checked out. I also bought a capacitance tester and checked those capacitors and thought they checked out but it's hard to know when I dont know what farad a JF is.

The original problem is that none of the bulbs will light. I had thought the relays were the culprit but if I jumper around the cap and resistor, the bulb lights. In my opinion, this means the relay is not at fault after all.

Does that all make sense or is it clear as mud

Brian Wiles
Wichita, Kansas

[Ron Rich]

Hi Brian,
Yep--mud's the word-- Usually, a "disc" cap is not "storing" much-- I'd look for a lytic, or paper type, to "store" enough power to fire a relay ?? Hopefully someone who has the schematic, and is familiar with that set--up, can chime in ( Norman ??) Ron Rich

[jukenorman]

Hi Brian and Ron,
I've had a quick trawl through the MM4 manual and I can find no schematic, but in the animation unit parts list there is no mention of relays and capacitors, only lamps and resistors. Weren't the animation discs just heat driven in these?

Norman.

[jukenorman]

Hi Brian,
I have read back your previous posts a bit more thoroughly - are there three relays, is the time delay adjustable, are they 120V AC supply?

Norman.

[rockinrob]

From the capacitor .0022 would mean 220 pico-farads with a tolerance of 10%. The JF is actually iF

[Ron Rich]

Thanks, Rob,
That's what I thought-- a 220 pico is not "storing" anything-- just slowing down a pulse-- Ron Rich

[thephantombrain]

May 9, 2021 9:27:45 GMT jukenorman said:

Hi Brian,
I have read back your previous posts a bit more thoroughly - are there three relays, is the time delay adjustable, are they 120V AC supply?

Norman.

Thanks for giving this inquiry your attention, Norman. There are three relays. They look exactly like the relay pictured here - link - even down to the two brown wires in and out. All are riveted shut, seemingly un-adjustable, and 120v AC supply.

Here is a pic of the guts of the assembly -

uploading pictures

In the image you can clearly see the line voltage coming in from the bottom where it spits to 2 posts and is easily traceable.

May 9, 2021 17:03:38 GMT rockinrob said:

From the capacitor .0022 would mean 220 pico-farads with a tolerance of 10%. The JF is actually iF

Thanks for clearing up the mystery of the capacitor rating, rockinrob and Ron Rich. Here is a pic of it just for further clarification -

[jukenorman]

Hi Brian,

I think you are misreading the circuit. 120V comes in to the unit and goes to the flasher unit on one pair via the resistor. Coming out of the flasher is the other pair which goes to the lamp. The capacitor looks like it's there as an interference suppressor. I would say your flasher units are gone. The only other possibility is that the resistors are open but I found another post you made where you stated that resistors were OK.

Norman.

[thephantombrain]

May 10, 2021 8:37:44 GMT jukenorman said:

Hi Brian,
I think you are misreading the circuit. 120V comes in to the unit and goes to the flasher unit on one pair via the resistor. Coming out of the flasher is the other pair which goes to the lamp. The capacitor looks like it's there as an interference suppressor. I would say your flasher units are gone. The only other possibility is that the resistors are open but I found another post you made where you stated that resistors were OK.

Norman.

Yes, I have checked the resistors previously and was satisfied with the readings. Is the interference suppression for some sort of electrical/magnetic noise created by the other components in the cabinet and does the resistor also exist as part of the suppression? I'm not sure I understand the purpose.

My final question is where can I find a comparable replacement for these relays? When I do a Google search i get all sorts varying results from dozens of vendors. Also, I'm not strong at soldering (but perhaps it's time to get strong) and I was hoping to find relays where I could use push-on connectors.

Obviously, I'm willing to defer to any recommendations I get here because of the collective knowledge of people with more experience then myself.

Thank you so much!

[jukenorman]

Hi Brian,

I googled the flasher unit and found somebody selling one on ebay in a Christmas tree light flasher (at a ridiculous price!) so it's probably just a bi-metallic strip in there. Try connecting a fluorescent starter across one of the capacitors to see how that flashes for you - remember there's 120V AC there so careful with the fingers when it's powered up!

The resistors are probably just there to drop the voltage to the lamps - maybe they were too bright or their life is extended with lower voltage?

Norman.

[Ron Rich]

Guyz,
Them things ain't "Relays" !!! Says exactly what they are, on them, "Flashers" --which I would guess to be bi metal contacts that heat up-and let go--heat up, and let go--- then ware out ! If those lamps are 117 VAC, and use an Edison socket, button flashers, are still available that fit inside the sockets-- Ron Rich

[thephantombrain]

May 10, 2021 10:03:30 GMT jukenorman said:

Hi Brian,

I googled the flasher unit and found somebody selling one on ebay in a Christmas tree light flasher (at a ridiculous price!) so it's probably just a bi-metallic strip in there. Try connecting a fluorescent starter across one of the capacitors to see how that flashes for you - remember there's 120V AC there so careful with the fingers when it's powered up!

The resistors are probably just there to drop the voltage to the lamps - maybe they were too bright or their life is extended with lower voltage?

Norman.

I connected a fluorescent starter i had in the garage and while it did flash, it was unpredictable with wildly different "on" times. After about 2 minutes the light just seemed to stay on continuous though. I don't think this starter will work and I don't know enough about the different models of fluorescent starters to ascertain if any will deliver regular interval flashes.

Here is a link to a YouTube video of my exact model of jukebox with (probably) a correctly working animation assembly (to the left of the selector switches) -

May 10, 2021 12:27:52 GMT Ron Rich said:

Guyz,
Them things ain't "Relays" !!! Says exactly what they are, on them, "Flashers" --which I would guess to be bi metal contacts that heat up-and let go--heat up, and let go--- then ware out ! If those lamps are 117 VAC, and use an Edison socket, button flashers, are still available that fit inside the sockets-- Ron Rich

I looked into those button flashers because I was really hoping they would provide a quick, easy, and cost effective fix to the problem. Unfortunately, they seem to only be available with a minimum of 60 flashes per minute which is about 6 times as fast as what I'm looking for.

I do think I've located a solution to the problem though. It's a traffic light sequencer made by Galak. It'll accept the 120 VAC input voltage and will evenly sequence the flashing of the lights and all for around $30. I'd have to gut all of the original components in my previous pictures except the Edison sockets and the 120 VAC line-in outlet plug. Then I'd need to safely mount it. Any thoughts on this idea?

Thanks guys for your continued help on this!

[jukenorman]

Hi Brian,
That sequencer looks like it will do what you want - there was a video attached to one Amazon review showing about a four second individual sequence. You should be able to mount it in the existing panel using plastic stand-offs.

Norman.