50Hz problem with Seeburg wallbox

[andyw]

Hi everyone,

I just got a RCSU2 stepper and a S-3W160 wallbox connected to my DS-160.

At the german jukebox forum from stamann I read, the 300 uF capacitor in the stepper (C554) should be replaced with a 470 uF capacitor because of the motor in the wallbox is moving too slow on 50 Hz.

I did that and everything was ok, so far.

BUT all selections beginning with "A" don't play.

The reset magnet ( the "V" looking relais) does not hold long enough while changing from letter to number and so the selections don't write in.

This happens only at selections beginning with "A". Is it possible, that the time at this selections is too short to get the capacitor fully loaded?

Anyone here has a hint for me?

Should I try to adjust the contact "H", that is responsible for the carry over from letter to number?

(I didn't have the courage to do anything at these contacts, because the stepper runs as it should)

Thanks in advance everybody!

[robnyc]

"BUT all selections beginning with "A" don't play." Are they wrong -or none. Does the mech scan?

"The reset magnet ( the "V" looking relais) does not hold long enough while changing from letter to number and so the selections don't write in."

The center "V" shaped magnet is the hold coil which keeps the ratchets held during Letter-number transfer and Write-in. That coil is actuated by the small contact blades that ride atop the letter and number clappers. They are the blades closest to the hold coil. They must close when the clapper is approx halfway down but must be open with slight clearance when clapper is fully up.

The small contact on the outer side of the letter clapper energizes the transfer relay.

Overview: s1192.photobucket.com/user/Rob-NYC/media/20160316_193205_zps2xuxpiv0.jpg.html?sort=2&o=214

the relay at the left is the transfer (letter to number): s1192.photobucket.com/user/Rob-NYC/media/20160316_193118_zpsf22z2dtg.jpg.html?sort=2&o=213

At 50hz it is possible that the transfer relay's copper slugs won't hold quite long enough. Check to see if the relay chatters during letter pulses. If it does, make sure the small clapper contacts are clean, no badly pitted and closing. If it still chatters add a 47mfd @35vdc or greater through a 47 ohm resistor.

These old stepping switches can not just be put back into service without a thorough cleaning of all contacts and removal of tarnish on the wafer rivets (do NOT use abrasives).

[andyw]

Hi Rob,

thank you for your explanations.

I will check and report back!

[Ron Rich]

Andy, Rob,
I agree with Rob about everything here, EXCEPT, the "tarnish" on the rivets--IMHO, Nothing, need be done as they will self clean after a few operations. Also, You might check the resistors in the hold circuit--they do change in value !
As for a "slow motor" Did you properly oil the motor and all moving parts with 20 wt. ND motor oil ? ( Motor speed shoould be between 21 and 26 RPM. Ron Rich

[robnyc]

"...EXCEPT, the "tarnish" on the rivets--IMHO"
Ron, I suggest this because the 'tarnish" becomes gummy and prevents the wipers from resetting. If however the silver is worn or been scoured off there will be resistance buildup over time. Most of the steppers I have in service are down to brass and every few years I have to clean and polish them.

Rob

[Ron Rich]

Hi Rob,
I don't think I have EVER seen "silver" on the contact rivets ? ( I have had to replace many contact plate that was :cleaned, with "sandpaper", or maybe with a wire brush, or an ignition file ??) If "gummy" I spray clean them with a plastic safe, safety solvent--then re-oil them with a light coat of 20 wt. Ron Rich

[PatrikD]

Did you get the wallbox to work ? I have the same problem with the 50hz setup , the motor on WB take 5sec for one spin, but i think that is to much time to go from 60hz to 50hz, W31 WB 100B box

[Ron Rich]

Hi Patrik,
Did you properly oil the motor, and drive train as noted above ? If so, jump the motor carry-over contacts, and count the number of revolutions it makes in a minute--21 is minimum-26 maximum. If within these to numbers, your problem is in the stepper unit. Ron Rich

[PatrikD]

Its spins for 4-5 sec to complete one round, and it is oiled and cleaned, i goning to try an frequencyinverter to have the HZ up to 60 from 50, (but i have a feeling that its not enought, hope im wrong), i hooked up an Arduino and a relay between ground and ”blue/send” cable at the Wallbox and made a code that send 4 pulses with a 45ms delay between ,and delay for 250 ms for next ”block” pulse with delay 45, with that code the recivier works good , the box choose A3 and so on with other settings with number and letter pulses.

[jmanis2]

May 11, 2019 20:47:28 GMT PatrikD said:

Its spins for 4-5 sec to complete one round, and it is oiled and cleaned, i goning to try an frequencyinverter to have the HZ up to 60 from 50, (but i have a feeling that its not enought, hope im wrong), i hooked up an Arduino and a relay between ground and ”blue/send” cable at the Wallbox and made a code that send 4 pulses with a 45ms delay between ,and delay for 250 ms for next ”block” pulse with delay 45, with that code the recivier works good , the box choose A3 and so on with other settings with number and letter pulses.

Let me know where you get with this.  My father recently brought a Seeburg 3W100 from the US to me in Belgium and did a lot of restoration work on it, it looks fantastic and with the Wallbox2Mp3 unit now attached plays songs.  The issue we have however is that the rotor failed to stop in the credit step to allow you to select the song. We advanced our rotor arm a bit to accommodate and song selection is now possible but the accuracy of the song selection is pretty bad (E.g. select A2 and it plays D4). We suspect that the root cause is a slow rotor, ours takes about 5 seconds for a rotation. The gearing is easy to turn by hand and doesn't feel bound up or restricted in any way. Disassembling the motor and cleaning feels like a lot of work considering how buried it is. We thought perhaps the voltage and Hz difference in Europe may be affecting it.

Anyone have a good guide for cleaning and oiling the motor?

Is there a standard procedure to convert one of these from 110 to 220 aside from the 24V transformer?

Jeff 

[Ron Rich]

Hi Jeff,
Read above--count the number of RPM's. Voltage of 220/110 makes no difference to the WOM, as it runs on 24 VAC only. I believe those motors are 50/60 Hz capable. Oiling is easy--oil using 20 wt ND oil --do all bearings on the drive train-- check the fly-out clutch action {be sure armature is oiled on both ends !!}! Usually no need to dis-assemble anything ! Ron Rich

[sooner]

May 29, 2019 19:39:17 GMT jmanis2 said:

We suspect that the root cause is a slow rotor, ours takes about 5 seconds for a rotation. The gearing is easy to turn by hand and doesn't feel bound up or restricted in any way. 


Jeff 

I suspect your correct about the 50 vs 60 HZ being a problem. My understanding is that all AC motors are frequency dependent. Otherwise why would there be a need for different US vs. European wallbox models?  Five seconds sounds high though even accounting for the 50/60 HZ difference. Here's a video of one that takes about 3.4 seconds to cycle (18 RPM). Changing yours from 50 to 60 HZ would, in theory, speed yours up to 4.2 seconds per cycle (14 RPM) which still seems a little slow. www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahf_DGuvSPo




 

[Ron Rich]

Steve,
RTFM, or read my post above--18 RPM is way too slow ! Ron Rich

[sooner]

May 30, 2019 12:47:42 GMT Ron Rich said:

Steve,
RTFM, or read my post above--18 RPM is way too slow ! Ron Rich

Interesting. The time I was quoting is from when the buttons were pushed in until they popped out so a little less that the time required for a full cycle. So the one in the video is probably running a little less that 18 RPM and still seems to be working okay.

The real point being that if Jeff's take 5 seconds (12 RPM) that's way too long and it's probably mostly because he's running a box meant for 60HZ on 50 HZ.

RTFM? Does that mean what I think it means?

[Ron Rich]

Hi Steve,
Means, Read The Friendly Manual --- lol-- Ron Rich