Post by Ron Rich on Jul 26, 2017 14:12:17 GMT
Hi All,
---EDIT: WARNING ! There were, and may still be, some "CRAPPY" after market cartridges, and needles, of all types, produced ! I strongly advise that you read all below--and all in the Off topic "scams" posts --BEFORE-- spending a dime ---
WARNING-- Be aware that "T" style needles were made by Pickering that, if inserted into a "Seeburg" cartridge, will instantly ruin that cartridge-- they "look" almost the same, but they have a rounded edge, and are "fatter", which causes the plastic surround to bust off-- Ron Rich
This comes up so often I thought I'd include it here--as a "sticky"-
EDIT: Seeburg re-designed the MECHANISM suspension system in the (1966) "160 selection" models to comply with the re-designed, "wedge style" cartridge, starting with the model SS-160. The "100 select" models also got the same cart., however, the mech suspension system remained designed for a 4 gram system. Yellow/violet needles were for the 2.5 system--Green/tan (brown) were for the 4 gram system--4 gram needles will work in the 2.5 system, but may "skip" !--2.5 gram needles will NOT work in the 4 gram system-- The pressure springs also got re-designed- They were issued in three colors-- Silver for 160 mechs, Red for 100 mechs, and "Purple" for the Home Stereo mechs. I have also seen Black springs-- these are aftermarket issued and are OK for use on the 100 mechs--however, I find them difficult to correctly "adjust". (RR) NOTE: The above pertains only to the carts that use "wedge/shovel" type needles, NOT to, the prior black/red stereo carts that were used in the model B thru thru the G-W models type needles. The first type of Pickering cart Seeburg used was in the 1949 model M 100 A --78 rpm phono. Next came the "black head" used in the M100 B thru the G-w models. Next was the "red-head" used in the model R thru 201 models-- Note--someone started a RUMOR, at that time which said the black/red head carts were "interchangeable"-- not totally true-- to interchange them correctly, the pressure springs must also be replaced, and the pressure for the red-head set at 4.5 to 5.5 grams. "Ideal pressure" for these is, 4 grams ! Next were the first stereo, models, used in the phono models 220, thru PFEA's. Then, in 1966 came the 340 wedge type carts/needles.
"WEDGE TYPES"---
Note: There are two types of "wedge" carts-- if it has 4 pins, it's a 340 type, or the very rare, 345-07x replacement, for the first style stereo carts. If bi pin, it's a replacement for the RED head mono carts--called a 345-03x, by Pickering (these two 345 type carts., were never sold by Seeburg !--the "green" and "brown" needles used in them, were sold by Seeburg for use in post 1967, 100, ("S-100", up), selection models. This CAN be used to replace a mono "blackhead" also, but, ONLY if the pressure springs are (or have been) replaced--see the Service Manual Page 2164--ISSUE 2* for pressure adjustments. Also note--- The 345 carts are a different weight, which MUST be compensated for, or you risk needle and record failures ( I add a weight cut from an old lead fishing weight, or tire weight, to the top of the cart--paint it black, not noticeable-)
To avoid all of the confusion-- here is the whole story in a "nutshell"--
Pickering made 3 different Seeburg cartridges that used the "wedge", or "shovel" style needles. The first one, regardless of the numbering on it, is easily identifiable by the fact it has no mounting, screw hole. It was designated as a "340" type cartridge. As used by Seeburg, it was installed in all phono's made since the S-100, and SS160 models. If used in the 100 series, models, it had tan/brown colored (S), 4 gram stylii installed (Green diamond needles, were optional). If used in a 160 series phono, It had yellow colored stylii (D), 2.5 grams of needle pressure, installed (Violet sapphire needles, were optional). This was also used in the "6000 series" home stereo--only the cartridge and stylii, were red-- no other difference. The 2nd one was designated as a 345. There were 345 models which had two pins, for use in the mono tone arms, and a version with 4 pins, intended to replace, the "twin T" type stereo cartridges-- These ALL used Green (D) or Tan/Brown (S) wedge stylii.
Sellers of THESE needles (almost) all state something like--good replacement for "all colors", of these type, needles-- This is what the maker(s?) of them "claims", but this is, simply, NOT, true ! Genuine, "Yellow" ** (diamond) and "Violet" (sapphire), needles are designed to comply with the Seeburg MAX 2.5 grams of tone arm pressure, which are the systems used in Seeburg 160 selection "coin phono products", since the SS-160 model, and the 33-1/3 rpm "Home Stereo's ". "Green" (d) and "Tan/brown' (s)" are designed to comply with 100 selection mechanisms using 4 grams of pressure, ( S-100, up, and the aftermarket 345-03x Pickering cartridges) -- RE-pop needles of this type MUST be "compromised" to achieve this ability--and to varying degrees, they all are ! Genuine Pickering's, have a slight crimp in the shaft near the plastic housing to hold them into the cartridge. There were no such items as "(V)-204" cartridges-- any seller selling needles for these is either lying, or mistaken-- As of 5/20, I have yet to see an aftermarket "needle", with a cantilever of the correct length--ALL are to long, some "catch" the cleaning brush !
Also--caution--SOME of the re-pops have a shank the fits into the cartridge that is "tapered" --some of this type will "ruin" the cartridge's ability to hold other type, including genuine types, ever again, as the "taper" bends the supporting ( inner) clips !
"345-xxx carts." were sold ONLY with "green" (diamond), or "Tan/brown", plastic encased needles--NEVER with yellow/vio.,or, red, encased needles !
EDIT: Genuine Pickering wedge types, were made with light blue plastic holding the needle-- these are MONO (1.0 mil), for use only on pre 1957, records .
EDIT 12/19: Found one ePay "seller" who HONESTLY, lists Yellow replacement needles -- I know nothing about this seller, or the quality of what he offers! His sellers name is " Moneymachines"--
EDIT 11/20--- www."needles4jukeboxes.com", now has this stated correctly, too--
* 4 grams for the 345 replacement types.
Issue 1, of the service manual page(#2164) shows only, 7-8 grams pressure for the blackhead type carts, issue 2 shows both, red and black head types .
** also mounted on Red plastic, for use in the "6000 Home Stereo's" - exactly the same as the Yellow plastic mount type.
EDIT: Pickering's numbering codes for the wedge ("shovel") type cart was as follows:
340-01S/D (stereo),was the first one that used yellow/violet needles (max 2.5 gm. needle pressure!)--340-03D/S Same as the 01, except supplied for use on the 100 select models with either a Green (d ) or, Tan/Brown (s) plastic encased needle (4 grams of pressure !). 340-02D Same as the 1st one, EXCEPT, Cart, and needle plastics were red (used on the "6000 series", home stereos)--345-03D/S MONO replacement cart., used either green (d), or brown(s) 4-6 gm pressure needles, 345-07D/S Stereo replacement for the "T" type carts.
345 carts., were offered by Pickering only after Seeburg's demise. There were three aftermarket types available. The 03D, and 03S were intended as a replacement for the mono "redhead". It could also be used, if the springs were changed, on the earlier "blackhead" equipped units--In either case, the weight of the new cart differed, and needed some type of a compromise made, to be used properly (see other text).
The 07D was intended as a replacement for the "stereo T type" needles, used in the first stereo Seeburgs.
Note about Pickering/Seeburg carts., after the "black-heads". None of these carts "work"-- if the coil(s) read, most likely they are good ! The "work" is done in the needle enclosure-- changing needles "re-news" the cartridge to "new" status ! If the coils are good, and the needle will stay in place, the cart. IS good !
Got axked about "Match Pair" claimed on genuine packaging-- Pickering matched pairs of these, starting with the mono black head needles all the way through production of the wedge type. Starting with the first "T" type stereo needles, they color coded pairs. Several colors were "dotted", in the circle (one type had "no color"), in the plastic --no other info was ever given out---. Genuine T types also had a "mold mark", consisting of a capital letter on them on the other (still the front) side of the plastic from the color dot area. They continued the color dot, when the wedge type was introduced ( no "circle"/mold mark, in the plastic), for a very short time only, as they announced that their manufacturing process resulted in "perfectly matched needles, every time".
{Edit: As of 11/18,} I have now seen a seller offering the "correct" needles for use in the later, 100 select phono's, and for the aftermarket 345 carts. I have obtained and tested these, in my commercially operated model "B", that has a correctly weighted 345 cart. in it. Being sold on EPay, for now--if you purchase, let us know what you think ! My opinion is: No cigar-- close, but they sound a little "shrill" to me, and the worst part, is that the stylus cantilevers, are still too long--stick out too far, and hit the needle brushes too hard. BTW--distinguishable, from the BACKSIDE, with an orange square molded into the center--wished they had made them another color other then yellow ! EDIT: as of 12/18, I see these are now made in a green colored plastic--I have not purchased them to test--yet ? --gettin' better, all the time ? BTW/FYI, I have ZERO financial interest in anything here, other then the two guides, and the SMC, Gen 2 MCU, I build, and sell, as stated in our "Parts for sale" section. Ron Rich
Since Seeburg introduced the 100 select "Select O Matic" (model "A") in 1948, as the 1949 model year phonograph, only 4 basic design needles were offered by Seeburg. They are: 1. The original type made for the 78 rpm model A ( .3mill, at first--later optional, .2 mill)--2. The almost the same (interchangeable) style made for the "blackhead" mono cart used from the first 45 rpm mechanism SEEBURG ( NOT the industry), sold, as standard on the B, thru the G-W models. These had a "1 mill" tip, and were as the 78 rpm needles, offered in diamond (optional) and sapphire versions. 2. The next cartridge/needle combination, was the "Red-head' mono cart. which featured a molded ( light blue) slide in needle (This needle, if "genuwine", has an embossed, stylized "S", on it !). This was introduced with the "model R" and used thru the model "201". This was also available as an optional (yellow plastic mounted), diamond. 3. First stereo system. Light blue, plastic molded ( again) stereo compliant "twin T" type sapphire needle, and an available diamond needle on PINK (not red/green--these are for BGM machine use ONLY !), plastic. Twin T needles, if "genuwhine" all have a circle on one side--for a color dot, and a "mold mark"--letter, on the other side. Two models later the pink was changed to gray. Offered, over the years, at sometimes, substantial savings--, were "aftermarket" made "replacement needles"---IMHO--you payz your sheckels, and getz x-zactley whut you paid for ! 4. The "wedge" style--covered above, in this sticky-- For more Cartridge/needle info, See the charts, and info, in my "Seeburg Mechanism Guide". If you need a copy check the "Where to find" it sticky, here on Jukebox Addicts.
EDIT--there are now newly produced replacement needles for the Red head, and for the Twin T type, which from all reports I have heard, so far, are the "best" now available-IF--and ONLY, IF, the tone arm spring pressure is set at 4 grams--ONLY !
"AFTERMARKET CARTRIDGES" (non Pickering made) --- All of these are mono--Most of these were NOT magnetic--quality was between awful, and fair. Seeburg amps were not intended to be used.with anything but magnetic carts. I have heard the same "brand" right out of the box, sound OK, and the next one, sound awful ?
Ron Rich
